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Thread: FOIA gone wild! Richmond PD honors FOIA records request; Chief wants them all back

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    FOIA gone wild! Richmond PD honors FOIA records request; Chief wants them all back

    Holy Wingnut, Batman:

    Richmond police sue anarchist for documents

    Richmond's police chief has gone to court to recover some of the hundreds of pages of documents turned over to an anarchist group and now posted on the Internet.

    In a complaint filed Tuesday in Richmond Circuit Court, Chief Bryan T. Norwood contends that Mo Karn, "a known and admitted anarchist," was given documents that were not required to be released under the Virginia Freedom of Information Act.

    "In the present circumstances, the dissemination of these documents in any form to the public jeopardizes and endangers Richmond police officers and citizens," Norwood said in the complaint. "Specifically, this information includes tactical plans for what police do in emergency situations."

    ...

    Megan H. Rhyne, executive director of the nonprofit Virginia Coalition for Open Government, said the police department faces a steep challenge because much of the Freedom of Information Act gives the custodian discretion over whether to release a record that may be withheld.

    "You can't put the genie back in the bottle," Rhyne said.
    The Genie really is out of the bottle. Richmond Copwatch has provided a wealth of information on official Richmond PD policies:

    Richmond Police Department Documents

    Please note: not all documents have yet been posted. Of serious interest would be any official or unofficial policy on how officers shall respond to any MWAG complaints.

    The ACLU-VA will fight to defend the FOIA request:

    ACLU to Defend Right to Keep and Publish Documents Obtained through FOIA

    The link also includes the Richmond legal papers demanding the return of all the FOIA'd documents.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    This is good stuff.

    I hope it gets mirrored a thousand places.

    We the PEOPLE have a right to know how our EMPLOYEES are being instructed to behave under ALL CIRCUMSTANCES.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    This is good stuff.

    I hope it gets mirrored a thousand places.

    We the PEOPLE have a right to know how our EMPLOYEES are being instructed to behave under ALL CIRCUMSTANCES.
    Read the PDF on Police weapons for example. Good to know!

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    Regular Member jmb_nova's Avatar
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    Great stuff here!!!

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    Nothing there to write home about. It is all just Standard Operating Procedure. Most of the stuff I have read through is just normal everyday practices. Police Officers are just like everybody else, sometimes you have to have it in writing to remember everything.
    Last edited by kenny; 01-06-2011 at 04:33 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenny View Post
    Nothing there to write home about. It is all just Standard Operating Procedure. Most of the stuff I have read through is just normal everyday practices. Police Officers are just like everybody else, sometimes you have to have it in writing to remember everything.
    Actually, there is a lot of good stuff there. And there's more policy/procedure posted that Repeater did not provide the links to.

    What's the best stuff is that this whole thing points out is that 1) the left hand does not know what the right hand is thinking, 2) there is a lack of proofreading being done before policies/procedures are committed to print, 3) the RPD has trouble understanding the law as it is written, 4) the RPD wants to be allowed to cover up a major lapse in behavior by claiming legal protection that they are not entitled to, and most egregious of all 5) they are willing to use name-calling as the basis for attempting to supress the rights of a citizen of the City and Commonwealth. I'm not going to get into the lapses/omissions/failures to complete the description of a chain of tasks that show up repeatedly in the published documents.

    If the Chief is bent out of shape that his underling released stuff without first passing it by him for final approval, then he ought to deal with that through personnel administration avenues. And perhaps by clearly informing his underling of the desire to have the final say (don't know if he did or not, but there is a lot to suggest he did not).

    stay safe.

    Edited to add: Kenny, we may need it in writing in order to be able to remember it, but the RPD needs it in writing to comply with the law, comply with agency accreditation, and to address legal liability reasons. I'm flabbergasted at myself for not having noticed your comment and addressing it in my first paragraph.
    Last edited by skidmark; 01-06-2011 at 04:59 PM. Reason: how could I have missed this issue?!?

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Great Analysis!

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Actually, there is a lot of good stuff there. And there's more policy/procedure posted that Repeater did not provide the links to.

    What's the best stuff is that this whole thing points out is that 1) the left hand does not know what the right hand is thinking, 2) there is a lack of proofreading being done before policies/procedures are committed to print, 3) the RPD has trouble understanding the law as it is written, 4) the RPD wants to be allowed to cover up a major lapse in behavior by claiming legal protection that they are not entitled to, and most egregious of all 5) they are willing to use name-calling as the basis for attempting to supress the rights of a citizen of the City and Commonwealth. I'm not going to get into the lapses/omissions/failures to complete the description of a chain of tasks that show up repeatedly in the published documents.

    If the Chief is bent out of shape that his underling released stuff without first passing it by him for final approval, then he ought to deal with that through personnel administration avenues. And perhaps by clearly informing his underling of the desire to have the final say (don't know if he did or not, but there is a lot to suggest he did not).

    stay safe.
    This is Spot-On analysis. I highlighted #3, "The RPD has trouble understanding the law as it is written ..."

    That's scary!

    There seems to be (so far) no policy on handling citizens with guns. It seems an official policy that instructs officers on the lawful, professional ways of handling citizens who carry, especially OPEN carry, is essential.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I'm afraid the Chief may have a little trouble getting those back

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    This is Spot-On analysis. I highlighted #3, "The RPD has trouble understanding the law as it is written ..."

    That's scary!

    There seems to be (so far) no policy on handling citizens with guns. It seems an official policy that instructs officers on the lawful, professional ways of handling citizens who carry, especially OPEN carry, is essential.
    It seems that Richmond police may arrest for brandishing a firearm after the fact, in the Constitutional Rights section under, when officer can arrest for a misdemeanor crime not committed in his presence

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I'm afraid the Chief may have a little trouble getting those back
    Once it's on the interwebz, it is there forever.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    Nothing in the constitutional rights pdf about protection of 2A rights.. shame shame.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
    -- George Washington

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    RPD & armed citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    This is Spot-On analysis. I highlighted #3, "The RPD has trouble understanding the law as it is written ..."

    That's scary!

    There seems to be (so far) no policy on handling citizens with guns. It seems an official policy that instructs officers on the lawful, professional ways of handling citizens who carry, especially OPEN carry, is essential.
    AMEN to that, brother!
    I have talked at length with the RPD counsel about my illegal detention for open-carrying while consuming a beer, and she has assured me that the Chief is willing to send me a letter of apology. Then we had to move, and in the ensuing confusion documents have been mislaid. Hope that this contretemps does not jeapordise that offer.
    Last edited by FreeRoy; 01-07-2011 at 10:06 AM.
    "Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys" -- P.J. O'Rourke

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    I remember one time, with a department that I worked for, we were issued policy manuals.

    When the administration wasn't following its own policies, and they were called on it, they collected all of the manuals.

    "Too hard to maintain and too costly to keep up with" was the reason.
    James Reynolds

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    I remember one time, with a department that I worked for, we were issued policy manuals.

    When the administration wasn't following its own policies, and they were called on it, they collected all of the manuals.

    "Too hard to maintain and too costly to keep up with" was the reason.
    Maybe we should push for a requirement that all LE agencies be ISO 9000 certified... It is a Quality Management process which essentially implements "say what you do, then do what you say" sorts of accountability in all major aspects of how you do your job.

    Needless to say, a department which recalls the policy manual would not pass...

    TFred

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeRoy View Post
    AMEN to that, brother!
    I have talked at length with the RPD counsel about my illegal detention for open-carrying while consuming a beer, and she has assured me that the Chief is willing to send me a letter of apology. Then we had to move, and in the ensuing confusion documents have been mislaid. Hope that this contretemps does not jeapordise that offer.
    They should be able to cross reference is by your name to find your file folder and probably from your picture too.

    Seriously, I would pursue that.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Read the PDF on Police weapons for example. Good to know!
    Very interesting I had no idea they did or do or could issue the P239. Only seen sigpro's on RPD belts.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Cool

    I found it interesting that the department [feels it] has the authority to mandate off-duty carry, caliber and even brand of ammunition.

    Hilarious... Sad and hilarious.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Maybe we should push for a requirement that all LE agencies be ISO 9000 certified... It is a Quality Management process which essentially implements "say what you do, then do what you say" sorts of accountability in all major aspects of how you do your job.

    Needless to say, a department which recalls the policy manual would not pass...

    TFred
    I'm not sure about ISO 9000, but DCJS requires certain levels of policy/procedure, and then national accreditation requires certain levels of policy/procedure. When you can get the 4th Circuit to admit to it, qualified immunity goes out the window when you show that the cop knew better because they 1) were trained and 2) signed off on the policy itself as having read & understood it. #1 & #2 are required for accreditation. A police force that does not meet DCJS minimums is asking for lawsuits.

    stay safe.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Alcoholic beverages?

    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    I found it interesting that the department [feels it] has the authority to mandate off-duty carry, caliber and even brand of ammunition.

    Hilarious... Sad and hilarious.
    I find the absence of an 'Alcoholic Beverages' policy within the 'Police Weapons' General Order interesting. Hard to know what that means. Does it mean an officer may carry and consume while on duty? While off duty?

    Maybe cops and alcohol don't mix. Just wondering.

  20. #20
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    I found it interesting that the department [feels it] has the authority to mandate off-duty carry, caliber and even brand of ammunition.

    Hilarious... Sad and hilarious.
    Every dept. does that, its a normal procedure, and they have every right to regulate that.
    James Reynolds

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  21. #21
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Every dept. does that, its a normal procedure, and they have every right to regulate that.
    Right?

    I think you have confused the concept of the term "right" with the term "authority".

    They may have the authority to mandate whatever they want of their employees, but RIGHTS come from God... which is why this forum is such a contradiction. If it weren't for our RIGHTS being trampled by government we would not even need a place to convene and conspire to regain those which have been infringed. Savvy?
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    I found it interesting that the department [feels it] has the authority to mandate off-duty carry, caliber and even brand of ammunition.

    Hilarious... Sad and hilarious.
    My department has a list of gun brands, caliber, and brand of ammo we are allowed to carry off duty. They also restrict what type of off duty holster we can use. We have to file paperwork and get them all personally approved, we have to state qualify each year with our off duty guns if we want to carry them. A lot of hassle, which is why I only carry my duty gun off duty. I have a lot of unused guns at home, which only see time at the range.
    Last edited by NovaCop10; 01-07-2011 at 03:39 PM.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    My department has a list of gun brands, caliber, and brand of ammo we are allowed to carry off duty. They also restrict what type of off duty holster we can use. We have to file paperwork and get them all personally approved, we have to state qualify each year with our off duty guns if we want to carry them. A lot of hassle, which is why I only carry my duty gun off duty. I have a lot of unused guns at home, which only see time at the range.
    Do most Departments in Virginia have an 'Alcoholic Beverages Policy' where officers may or may not consume alcoholic beverages while carrying? Does your Department have a policy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt_Kowalski View Post
    Nothing in the constitutional rights pdf about protection of 2A rights.. shame shame.
    No need to, it is already in the Bills of Rights. Very plain and simple to me. Why would there be a need to expound on it?

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    what's the old line people used to say to justify searches and over reaching gov't "authority"? Oh yeah, "if you don't have anything to hide, why not let them just search?". Sometimes that would be followed by something like "and just get it over with, it's easier for both of you". well, should the same not be said for governmental agencies? If there's nothing to hide....

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