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FOIA gone wild! Richmond PD honors FOIA records request; Chief wants them all back

wylde007

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
3,035
Location
Va Beach, Occupied VA
Every dept. does that, its a normal procedure, and they have every right to regulate that.
Right?

I think you have confused the concept of the term "right" with the term "authority".

They may have the authority to mandate whatever they want of their employees, but RIGHTS come from God... which is why this forum is such a contradiction. If it weren't for our RIGHTS being trampled by government we would not even need a place to convene and conspire to regain those which have been infringed. Savvy?
 

NovaCop

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Dec 6, 2009
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I found it interesting that the department [feels it] has the authority to mandate off-duty carry, caliber and even brand of ammunition.

Hilarious... Sad and hilarious.

My department has a list of gun brands, caliber, and brand of ammo we are allowed to carry off duty. They also restrict what type of off duty holster we can use. We have to file paperwork and get them all personally approved, we have to state qualify each year with our off duty guns if we want to carry them. A lot of hassle, which is why I only carry my duty gun off duty. I have a lot of unused guns at home, which only see time at the range.
 
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Repeater

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
2,498
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
My department has a list of gun brands, caliber, and brand of ammo we are allowed to carry off duty. They also restrict what type of off duty holster we can use. We have to file paperwork and get them all personally approved, we have to state qualify each year with our off duty guns if we want to carry them. A lot of hassle, which is why I only carry my duty gun off duty. I have a lot of unused guns at home, which only see time at the range.

Do most Departments in Virginia have an 'Alcoholic Beverages Policy' where officers may or may not consume alcoholic beverages while carrying? Does your Department have a policy?
 

mrt6812

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Sep 1, 2009
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what's the old line people used to say to justify searches and over reaching gov't "authority"? Oh yeah, "if you don't have anything to hide, why not let them just search?". Sometimes that would be followed by something like "and just get it over with, it's easier for both of you". well, should the same not be said for governmental agencies? If there's nothing to hide....
 

nuc65

Activist Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
1,121
Location
Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
My department has a list of gun brands, caliber, and brand of ammo we are allowed to carry off duty. They also restrict what type of off duty holster we can use. We have to file paperwork and get them all personally approved, we have to state qualify each year with our off duty guns if we want to carry them. A lot of hassle, which is why I only carry my duty gun off duty. I have a lot of unused guns at home, which only see time at the range.

Can you share that information?
 

NovaCop

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Dec 6, 2009
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Do most Departments in Virginia have an 'Alcoholic Beverages Policy' where officers may or may not consume alcoholic beverages while carrying? Does your Department have a policy?

Yes, no consuming alcohol if carrying a firearm, including on private property.
 

VAlitigator

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
39
Location
Richmond, Virginia
The lawsuit filed by the attorney for the city and RPD is a mess. That line about "Mo Karn is an anarchist" is ripe for a motion to strike because it is inflammatory; it's just a nasty swipe at the defendant's character to insert a scare factor.

If I were defense counsel, I'd love to see the city defend why they put that line in there. Is it "well, we would release the policies to SOME people but not to HER because of her political beliefs." OK, so does that mean you engage in selective release of the documents based on the requestor's political beliefs? And how do you determine that? Do you do a background investigation on requestors before releasing documents? Or do you just want to stop now and admit you threw that line in there to make the court go "oooohh no, not anarchists!!!"
 

Repeater

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
2,498
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
I'm glad you read the documents

The lawsuit filed by the attorney for the city and RPD is a mess. That line about "Mo Karn is an anarchist" is ripe for a motion to strike because it is inflammatory; it's just a nasty swipe at the defendant's character to insert a scare factor.

Well, you are correct with your opinion -- they are a mess!

They actually reveal, perhaps unintentionally, the attitude that exists within the RPD toward its citizens. These are supposed to be public servants; yet they act like our Masters.

Note how bent-out-of-shape his Highness is because the Custodian did not go to him first seeking permission.

The complaint actually reveals how many "policies" or "orders" there are; Karn did not request all of them. The complaint also reveals that the Department, as policy, will never disclose criminal investigative files, because they don't have to. So much for transparency.
 

VAlitigator

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
39
Location
Richmond, Virginia
this lawsuit is already proving to be a case study in unintended consequences for RPD and the City. As Keith Richards once said, "there is no such thing as 'bad publicity.'"

Mo Karns has already posted that their website has gone from 200 hits per day to over 7000 because of the publicity from the lawsuit.

The press is providing sympathetic coverage; hell, the front-page article on the Richmond Times-Dispatch website this morning was "The Wingnut Collective well-liked in the community" , and if you read it you come away with the feeling of "awww, darn if these scary ANARCHISTS aren't the cutest, nicest little hippies you would ever meet. They read books to kids in the community. And they have jobs. And Karns even has a concealed carry permit!"
 

Repeater

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
2,498
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
Yes, more reading is good!

this lawsuit is already proving to be a case study in unintended consequences for RPD and the City. As Keith Richards once said, "there is no such thing as 'bad publicity.'"

Mo Karns has already posted that their website has gone from 200 hits per day to over 7000 because of the publicity from the lawsuit.

The press is providing sympathetic coverage; hell, the front-page article on the Richmond Times-Dispatch website this morning was "The Wingnut Collective well-liked in the community" , and if you read it you come away with the feeling of "awww, darn if these scary ANARCHISTS aren't the cutest, nicest little hippies you would ever meet. They read books to kids in the community. And they have jobs. And Karns even has a concealed carry permit!"

Indeed! I read the TD this morning. Everything you say about the article is indeed accurate. Right below the screaming headline, Goochland prison to close, is a nice color photo of the Wingnut hospitality suite.

Nice quote:

No drugs or alcohol are allowed in the house, making it an easier sell that it is a safe place for children. But they also believe in the right to arm themselves. Karn said she keeps two guns and has a concealed-weapons permit.

They also keep tabs on police through the Copwatch group. When they hear sirens or get a tip about an encounter between police and a neighborhood resident, they've been known to jump out of bed to videotape or serve as a witness.

"Police have a tendency to overstep their bounds at times," says Hawthorne, 26, who alleges on the group's website that the house is under police surveillance.

I love the amazing, implicit message from the first paragraph: alcohol and kids don't mix, but guns are okay!

Finally, your observation is probabaly lost on the clueless RPD: their heavy-handed tactics have backfired big-time.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
this lawsuit is already proving to be a case study in unintended consequences for RPD and the City. As Keith Richards once said, "there is no such thing as 'bad publicity.'"

Mo Karns has already posted that their website has gone from 200 hits per day to over 7000 because of the publicity from the lawsuit.

The press is providing sympathetic coverage; hell, the front-page article on the Richmond Times-Dispatch website this morning was "The Wingnut Collective well-liked in the community" , and if you read it you come away with the feeling of "awww, darn if these scary ANARCHISTS aren't the cutest, nicest little hippies you would ever meet. They read books to kids in the community. And they have jobs. And Karns even has a concealed carry permit!"

This is an interesting bunch Mark.
Quite honestly, there is a little anarchist in us all.
I've spent some time looking into them and you notice that even though they are self proclaimed anarchists, they worked within the framework of the system to get this information.

While the house is a little hectic from time to time, they seem to be intent on doing good work. There doesn't seem to be much sinister going on.

On another note, at ten posts you've proven to be a real asset to this site. Between you and Dan, the knowledge base has increased tenfold.
Thank You!
 
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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
this lawsuit is already proving to be a case study in unintended consequences for RPD and the City. As Keith Richards once said, "there is no such thing as 'bad publicity.'"

This is an interesting bunch Mark.

On another note, at ten posts you've proven to be a real asset to this site. Between you and Dan, the knowledge base has increased tenfold.
Thank You!

Big +1 on that! The guidance and interpretations are greatly appreciated.
 

AbNo

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
3,805
Location
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
Finally, your observation is probabaly lost on the clueless RPD: their heavy-handed tactics have backfired big-time.

Actually, there's a term for this sort of, thing, where attempts to suppress information typically already on the internet ends up with them suddenly becoming widespread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
The Streisand effect is a primarily online phenomenon in which an attempt to hide or remove a piece of information has the unintended consequence of perversely causing the information to be publicized more widely and to a greater extent than would have occurred if no contrary action had been attempted. It is named after American entertainer Barbra Streisand, following a 2003 incident in which her attempts to suppress photographs of her residence inadvertently generated further publicity.

See also: Surry County's ongoing idiocy and Skidmark.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Actually, there's a term for this sort of, thing, where attempts to suppress information typically already on the internet ends up with them suddenly becoming widespread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect


See also: Surry County's ongoing idiocy and Skidmark.

Indeed, the bigger web they weave, the more apt it is to be seen (for what it is). :D

Unintended consequences et al.

It appears to me that almost any man may like the spider spin from his own inwards his own airy citadel. — John Keats
 

bom1911

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
114
Location
Chesterfield County , USA
Maybe we should push for a requirement that all LE agencies be ISO 9000 certified... It is a Quality Management process which essentially implements "say what you do, then do what you say" sorts of accountability in all major aspects of how you do your job.

Needless to say, a department which recalls the policy manual would not pass...

TFred


I worked for a company that received it's ISO certification. I was on the committee that was responsible for ensuring the departmental procedures were up to date, were available to the employees, and that the employees were trained in the use of the manuals. I also worked for another company where I was responsible for authoring and maintaining all technical policies and procedures applicable to an ISO certification (basically all of them). I doubt the police have what it takes to meet the requirements.
 
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