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Thread: Another victim...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Another victim...

    Jeeze. What will it take for people to begin to stand up against a system that keeps these fools in DC disarmed?

    http://www.tbd.com/blogs/tbd-on-foot...film-6880.html

    And no one helps. No sheepdogs allowed.
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  2. #2
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I saw this on the news tonight. Wouldn't it have been great if the victim had been able to push a few of his assailants off of the platform and onto the tracks, contacting the third rail? Poetic justice can be sweet.

    My wife asked me that if this were to happen to me would I draw my gun to which I answered, "no". It was in DC and you're not supposed to be carrying a gun in that sewer. I also reminded her that there is nothing in DC that I want and I don't go in there unless I absolutely have to.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Wow. What incredibly stupid kids, posting full evidence of their crime on YouTube, along with a complete electronic trail back to their specific address, even through whatever "anonymous" proxy server they may have been using.

    Sooner or later, they'll be caught.

    If kids tried that with me, they'd be shot.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Wow. What incredibly stupid kids, posting full evidence of their crime on YouTube, along with a complete electronic trail back to their specific address, even through whatever "anonymous" proxy server they may have been using.

    Sooner or later, they'll be caught.

    If kids tried that with me, they'd be shot.
    Really?

    What are the rules regarding use of deadly force in your world?

    We talk about the antis projecting onto us their fears that they would grab their gun and shoot someone over trivial matters like who gets that parking space. And now you come and say that a couple of teens slapping you up side the head is sufficient reason to shoot them?

    I'm in no way attempting to defend what the kids did. I'm just saying that loose talk of blood lust does nobody any good. Supposedly we all know the law and where it draws the lines. Saying we would cross those lines makes us no better than the antis and the criminals.

    stay safe.

  5. #5
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Really?

    What are the rules regarding use of deadly force in your world?

    We talk about the antis projecting onto us their fears that they would grab their gun and shoot someone over trivial matters like who gets that parking space. And now you come and say that a couple of teens slapping you up side the head is sufficient reason to shoot them?

    I'm in no way attempting to defend what the kids did. I'm just saying that loose talk of blood lust does nobody any good. Supposedly we all know the law and where it draws the lines. Saying we would cross those lines makes us no better than the antis and the criminals.

    stay safe.
    Too many variables to make this statement in my opinion, or a blanket statement for shooting. For example, and none of us were there so this is obviously conjecture, what was the victim experiencing during this? Was he in genuine fear of serious harm? There are several kids carrying out the attack and things can get ugly pretty fast when there are multiple attackers. It this were me, I would be faced with more of a problem then was the victim here because of my knees. I could not move quickly, fight, or flee so I would be in a more desperate situation than the fellow here.

    Lots of things to consider before making any sort of blanket statement about what one would do or not do. When my wife asked if I would pull my gun, I said "no" because this took place in DC. However if it was in Virginia, there is the strong possibility I would, but I cannot say that with certainty because I believe one wouldn't know until it was happening. With these punks, I suspect as soon as you made a move for your gun, they would most likely scatter. And of course, this is Virginia, not DC, where one can carry a gun. Perps also know this.


    On a side note.

    You've got one heck of a lot of support Paul. We're all pulling for you and Dan as you both represent all of us. God bless.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 01-07-2011 at 07:39 AM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy -

    I agree that there are a lot of variables to consider, including whether or not since9 is limited in his ability to defend himself or has medical conditions which make even this slight assault life threatening. But he did not mention any of those in his outburst - he made a blanket statement. I'm not going to chastise you for not noticing that I made reference to the laws on use of deadly force, thus considering all the issues you bring up. Instead I'm going to agree with you that many things need to be considered.

    The victim in this case did not try to run away. Instead they merely moved about - een going back to interact with his attackers. Given the little information available it does not appear that he was in fear for his life - but we will all withhold making that a flat-out assertion.

    The saddest thing I take away from this report is that the youths who witnessed this all failed to object, let alone intervene.

    stay safe.

  7. #7
    Regular Member WantsToCarry's Avatar
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    Kids Suck. Simply Put. Like another posted stated "If that happend here and not DC" I would have two things to consider:
    1.) Ok..so they are under 15...I could draw my gun and get them to scatter, but may be called up on brandishing a gun to someone so young that it didn't constitue drawing my weapon.
    2.) If i Coal conk these devil children, what kinda trouble am I in? Sure self defense, but they are children. (Then again at my size Id be scared to hurt em too bad. And Sidenote: Im not tryin to sound like mister tough guy..)

    But thats the " I wasn't there" view of it all. Vision always being 20/20 in hindsight

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    I don't know whether I'd shoot or not, not having been there. But, I can believe that the man might believe that he is in grave danger based on three facts: The attacks were coming from several thugs; the attacks were coming from all sides; and the thugs were demonstrating that they felt no moral limitation. It is impossible to predict when sociopathic behavior will become murderous.

    Again, this is speculation, since I was not in the situation, but if I felt that I was in grave danger, I'd try to get my back to a wall (to limit the attack to my field of view), draw my weapon, and tell the thugs to "Back off!" (with a colorful metaphor thrown in for emphasis). If they continued to try to attack me, reasonable belief that I was in grave danger would be undeniable. Thugs advancing on someone known to be holding a gun can lead to a single conclusion: They intend to take the gun and to continue the assault. I'd start shooting in self-defense.

  9. #9
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WantsToCarry View Post
    Kids Suck. Simply Put. Like another posted stated "If that happend here and not DC" I would have two things to consider:
    1.) Ok..so they are under 15...I could draw my gun and get them to scatter, but may be called up on brandishing a gun to someone so young that it didn't constitue drawing my weapon.
    2.) If i Coal conk these devil children, what kinda trouble am I in? Sure self defense, but they are children. (Then again at my size Id be scared to hurt em too bad. And Sidenote: Im not tryin to sound like mister tough guy..)

    But thats the " I wasn't there" view of it all. Vision always being 20/20 in hindsight
    You would be within your rights to defend yourself against any one regardless of their age in a situation like this. Whether or not that defense includes the use of deadly force... well, that would have to depend upon the seriousness of the attack, not their age. A group of 14 to 16 year old kids can bring about some serious hurt in a hurry, especially if they have some sort of weapon in their hands (rocks, sticks, baseball bats, etc.). And while some might believe that an adult male should find some other way to deal with kids like this, it is my take that anyone who says this has not been faced with an attack by young punk kids.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  10. #10
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I don't know whether I'd shoot or not, not having been there. But, I can believe that the man might believe that he is in grave danger based on three facts: The attacks were coming from several thugs; the attacks were coming from all sides; and the thugs were demonstrating that they felt no moral limitation. It is impossible to predict when sociopathic behavior will become murderous.

    Again, this is speculation, since I was not in the situation, but if I felt that I was in grave danger, I'd try to get my back to a wall (to limit the attack to my field of view), draw my weapon, and tell the thugs to "Back off!" (with a colorful metaphor thrown in for emphasis). If they continued to try to attack me, reasonable belief that I was in grave danger would be undeniable. Thugs advancing on someone known to be holding a gun can lead to a single conclusion: They intend to take the gun and to continue the assault. I'd start shooting in self-defense.
    This!!

    Well put and the right observation and response in my book. An attack from multiple individuals can rapidly become a swelling mind of its own (mob-like action). Four or five teenage males can do one heck of a lot of damage in extremely short order to a single adult male, especially one who is on in age and not 100% physically able to defend themselves.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  11. #11
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    In this particular situation, being inside the city limits of DC, merely carrying a firearm, much less brandishing it or firing it, would have landed the victim in serious criminal trouble no matter the provocation. Would any of us who understand and obey the law actually have carried a firearm inside DC? If so, would you have brought it out of concealment in this situation? I doubt it.

    The DC Metro System is acknowledged to be horribly managed. Their record of accidents and negligence (especially in allowing unsafe train units to remain in service) is a matter of public record. Since we, by DC law, are prevented from effectively defending ourselves (even assuming that this attack justified a lethal response), then it is incumbent on the Metro Police to station an officer on every platform. That the bystanders refused to come to his aid or even to simply press the 'distress' button is a sad commentary on our times.

    Anyone who has to travel on Metro should be in condition orange at all times and should know self-defense techniques that would stop an attack. Unfortunately, the vast number of people who go about their normal business every day and who don't expect to be attacked, seldom prepare for the eventuality.

  12. #12
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    "devil children" is right!

    And a racist attack as well. Listen to the guy narrating the video (hard to watch).
    Why is it this will probably never make the media, let alone be identified as a hate crime?
    Hope he gets hold of security camera video & police can ID the attackers.

    If that happened to me in DC (why would I be in DC?) I'd fight back as soon as it was clear that the teens intended to continue their assault. I don't care that they're younger than me, they look to be nearly the same size as the guy they're attacking and there are several of them.

    If I saw it happening, I'd take one of the "kids" out from behind, then go stand with the victim to take on the rest. (With a little luck, there'd be a wall nearby & the kid would hit it & lie still until the police arrived.) Probably against 2 people, esp. when we've shown resistance, they'd at least stop attacking & probably go away.

    If I were attacked this way anywhere I was allowed to be armed, I'd make sure the "kids" saw it & let them decide whether or not to risk getting killed for their "fun".
    One person facing a mob is definitely a dangerous situation. Life-threatening.

    I can't express how sad I am to see how low "society" has fallen. This man was being attacked & not only did people not help him (which there were ways to do without putting themselves at risk), they took video & posted it for amusement.
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  13. #13
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    No deadly force was warranted in hindsight. As other have said, you never know if you would have presented a weapon or not until faced with the events.

    In the video, the victim seems to be relatively unconcerned for his own safety, continuing to proclaim "I have done nothing to you..." while he could have simply broken a few arms, cracked some heads, or run away. He acts almost like he was trying to parent them or scold them, rather than protect himself. In a state with stand-your-ground legislation, who knows how it would end, especially if this guy was armed and fed up with this kind of crap. The Goetz in my memory was such a figure - kind of like the main character in The Brave One: someone who arms and hunts in response to having been hunted.

    He had ample opportunity to run, and could have certainly fled if he hadn't stood, pointing at the kids, mouthing off. This is a bunch of kids acting like bullies, having picked a guy they felt would take the abuse - and they were right. It actually made me think about wilding behavior of packs of chimps. The guy does work at a flower shop, so they might have picked up on his lack of machismo (generalizing here that a guy who arranges flowers is probably not going to appear to be a tough guy.) People prey on the weak and unprepared, and groups tend to get into a frenzy and lose perspective.
    --
    “I WAS ATTACKED AT L’ENFANT METRO SUNDAY AT 7:15 PM. NO ONE HELPED. PLEASE BE CAREFUL.”
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    That says it all.

    This theme has been repeated since before I was aware of it. Back in high school, I recall hearing about people in NYC and similar places not coming to the aid of others in such situations (to Texans, NYC was emblematic of all things wrong with people.) Come to think of it, we want to get involved, but our CHL training tells us to stay away from intervening as a third party... Chicken s**t laws intended to turn us to wimps now tell us that if we go to the aid of another when we could have run away, self-defense does not apply.

  14. #14
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    And a racist attack as well. Listen to the guy narrating the video (hard to watch).
    Why is it this will probably never make the media, let alone be identified as a hate crime?
    DC is full of racist minorities so you aren't about to see this labeled a hate crime by the DC police.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claytron View Post
    Dude.....

    Hightower from Police academy was a flourist. Not cool.
    Yeah, but nobody in that video reminded me of Hightower. <wink>

    One lesson to take from this, and from your story, is is that we SHOULD be concerned for our safety, even when we don't yet understand the situation. The guy in the video didn't really think through the situation, or he might have sought refuge sooner.

    Last week, my sister-in-law was approached on the street by a crackhead (literally) who said "I want your purse." She responded with "yeah, right" and kept moving, unconcerned. He grabbed it, wrenched it from her grasp, and ran. She tried running after him and fell, injuring herself. She first failed to understand the danger of the initial encounter, and then didn't quite think through the "what if I catch him in the alley" scenario. The week before, she was at my house for Christmas and saw me wearing my pistol (I OC in my house.) She asked me "why do you have that on?" I replied with, "because I always do, you never know." Her son reminded her about that exchange after the mugging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    In this particular situation, being inside the city limits of DC, merely carrying a firearm, much less brandishing it or firing it, would have landed the victim in serious criminal trouble no matter the provocation. Would any of us who understand and obey the law actually have carried a firearm inside DC? If so, would you have brought it out of concealment in this situation? I doubt it.
    In the context of where I live, I would act as described in my earlier post. In DC, I'd be at the mercy of the thugs--which is why, unless absolutely necessary, I will avoid DC like the plague, at least until they finally decided to follow the law as it is described in Heller.

    It is a shame that, if we wish to exercise our rights, we must avoid our national capital.

  17. #17
    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    That was a real good time for Pepper/CS gas spray.

    No wind. Squirt and move. In about 10 seconds you could have 5-6 on the ground crying for Mama.



    From the link posted by Dreamer:
    "Defense sprays are registered to discourage any illegal use of these powerful weapons. It is only lawful to use them if you are threatened with bodily harm. Just one blast of pepper spray is enough to completely incapacitate any aggressor, so it is an ideal form of self protection in Washington D.C., or anywhere you may go."

    The FOOL that wrote the above and the IDIOTS who write the ordinances in DC need to be strung up by their toes and left a few days.
    Last edited by OldCurlyWolf; 01-08-2011 at 05:31 AM.
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  18. #18
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    In Washington DC, you can't legally carry ANY self-defense tool unless it is registered with the police.

    Even Pepper Spray must be registered with MPD if it is purchased in the District, per D.C. Code Section 7-2502.14 (which is under the "Firearms Control" part of DC criminal code)

    § 7-2502.14. Registration of self-defense sprays
    (a) A person 18 years of age or older must register the self-defense spray at the time of purchase by completing a standard registration form.
    (b) The vendor must forward the registration form to the Metropolitan Police Department.
    No joke...

    http://www.pepper-spray-store.com/re...-dc-laws.shtml
    Last edited by Dreamer; 01-07-2011 at 08:18 PM.
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  19. #19
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    This reminds me of the incident in FL a couple of weeks ago with the marine and his wife...In that instance at least one person out of a hundred helped.
    Do cell phone video cameras and the "reality"-based entertainment paradigm generate this callousness, or are they just symptoms of a more deeply ingrained dysfunction?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I don't know whether I'd shoot or not, not having been there. But, I can believe that the man might believe that he is in grave danger based on three facts: The attacks were coming from several thugs; the attacks were coming from all sides; and the thugs were demonstrating that they felt no moral limitation. It is impossible to predict when sociopathic behavior will become murderous.

    Again, this is speculation, since I was not in the situation, but if I felt that I was in grave danger, I'd try to get my back to a wall (to limit the attack to my field of view), draw my weapon, and tell the thugs to "Back off!" (with a colorful metaphor thrown in for emphasis). If they continued to try to attack me, reasonable belief that I was in grave danger would be undeniable. Thugs advancing on someone known to be holding a gun can lead to a single conclusion: They intend to take the gun and to continue the assault. I'd start shooting in self-defense.
    I dont agree with you often enough, but i think this was well stated and I agree!

  21. #21
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    What are the rules regarding use of deadly force in your world?
    Multiple assailants. It is unreasonable to expect an average person to defend themselves against more than one attacker. Furthermore it is not unheard of that a man can be beaten to death with only fists and feet.

    he certainly could have attempted to flee, and while doing so he could draw his firearm in case he was unable to escape. The unfortunate thing is in DC he would be breaking the law by carrying a firearm. so even if he had been armed, and been acquitted of any charges relating to the use of deadly force in his defense, he would likely still be convicted of the firearms possession charge.
    Last edited by Nevada carrier; 01-08-2011 at 03:45 PM.

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    Regular Member frommycolddeadhands's Avatar
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    Shoulda just belted this out of control kid in the mouth within the first 30 seconds of being struck. It would have been a much more anti-climactic video to watch the 'alfa teen' drop like a sack of potatoes and all of her little friends scatter like roaches (or step up to get their own stamp of approval).

    It takes a village...and sometimes it takes villagers with pointy sticks and torches....
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    Hate to point this out, but take note that it's at least one black female assaulting a white male and that several bystanders stood by without intervening. Want to guess why? Want to bet DC will not cry "hate crime"? (we know they would if the roles were reversed)

    One major issue here is that even if carry were allowed, our politicians at all levels seem to think that people need to be disarmed when using public transit systems. The mentality behind that: If you can afford to carry a firearm, then you can afford to not use public transit.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 01-10-2011 at 10:37 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Disparity of force.

    I might not have a gun on me, but I ALWAYS have a knife on me.

    After the first two kids get stabbed, they'll realize I'm not such a soft target thy thought I was.

    ...And yes... the bitch would be going over the railing... I'd work it out in court later.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Really?
    No, skidmark. I sometimes let slip with an old euphamism instead of being literal.

    Yes, actually. Multiple attackers, violent attacks. I'd almost certainly simply draw on them first, but if they kept at it...
    Last edited by since9; 01-17-2011 at 02:26 AM.
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