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Thread: Bad proposal from USSC

  1. #1
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    Bad proposal from USSC

    I just got this from USSC

    "USSC is already working with potential sponsors to change Utah law so that people from other states will have to get a permit from their home state before applying for a Utah permit."

  2. #2
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Bad proposal indeed. This would mean that residents of Illinois and Wisconsin, and other States as well, would be ineligible to apply for our permit.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    I Agree.., and on that Note, Utah Needs to Keep its Permiting Structure as it Stands.
    Utah is one of The Last Great Bastions of Firearm Liberties that this Nation has left.

  4. #4
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    The quick and dirty NEWS RELEASE was incomplete and easily leads to misunderstanding the intent of this proposed legislation by Utah Shoot Sports Council (USSC).

    http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/vi...art=15#p118644

    In another forum USSC webmaster explains that the proposal is for those who live in SHALL issue states that those applying for a Utah permit HAVE a permit from the state in which they live. For those who live in states that DON't issue permits (VT, AZ, AK) they can apply without having a permit from their state of residence as well as those who live in states that are MAY issue, but don't really issue! (some paraphrasing on my part)

    Now as a Utah resident, I am not sure as to the wisdom of changing UTAH law for some nebulous maybe in other states. The easiest way on this for me is IF the state someone lives in doesn't like that their resident has a UTAH permit INSTEAD of the permit offered by the state they live in THEN CHANGE YOUR LAW as you see fit (as long as it is in complete compliance with our various constitutions!)
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 01-07-2011 at 06:08 PM. Reason: adding link

  5. #5
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    The proposal is viewed as one of the least offensive, restrictive ways we can improve and maintain the "quality" of the Utah permit.

    Nevada and New Mexico have recently dropped recognition of the Utah permit. Officially it was over lack of live fire or other training requirements. Unofficially, both the States and instructors for their permits were miffed over losing revenue to the Utah permit and instructors for the Utah permit.

    Arizona had similar concerns a few years ago and fortunately took a different tact: Arizona will not recognize any non-Arizona permit held by an Arizona resident. If you are Arizona resident and want the benefits of a permit (much reduced now with permit free constitutional carry, but that is beside the point), you will need to get an Arizona permit.

    Texas is now having similar discussions relative to the Utah permit. Fortunately, they are looking at the Arizona solution rather than the Nevada/New Mexico solution. Texas is unique in that they are being quite open about admitting it is about lost revenue for both the State and instructors of the Texas permit.

    Utah is becoming a victim of our own success. Our permits are not expensive. The required training is what we and most other States consider most crucial--the legal elements of use of deadly force--without imposing needless time, costs, or other constraints on applicants. And it is one of the most widely accepted permits in the nation. It is an easy sell. An every time some instructor goes into a place like Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, etc and starts telling prospective customers that they don't need to get a home State permit, they can just get a Utah permit instead, he creates a financial incentive for the local instructors to start lobbying to deny recognition of the Utah permit.

    Ideally, we wouldn't need permits to exercise our rights. But so long as we do, it is much to our advantage to have as widespread recognition as possible so we don't require 40 different permits to move around the country.

    So, how to protect the utah permit? It would be nice if States concerned about revenue would simply be honest as Texas has and adopt the Arizona/Texas model of requiring their own citizens to get resident permits while still recognizing out-of-State permits held by non-residents. But I can't much influence what 20 other State legislatures do.

    What I can do is influence what the Utah legislature does. We could raise our permit fees until we were not undercutting other States. We could increase training and paperwork requirements until we had the most restrictive permit in the nation. I think we all agree both of those "solutions" are non-starters.

    So the idea is to address both the financial and most of the training concerns by requiring non-Utah-residents in shall issue States to have a valid home-State permit before they can get a Utah permit. We no longer undercut other permits since people are required to get their home-State permit first. Even most training concerns go away as residents are required to pass all home-State permit requirements before getting a Utah permit. The rare Utahn who visits is a statistical rarity.

    This also creates a bit of an incentive for residents of other States to be involved with their legislatures to improve their own permit processes rather than just taking a free ride on Utah permits.

    The other alternatives include doing nothing and watching as we lose recognition in additional States and have a harder time gaining recognition in some States. Some have talked about ending the issuance of Utah permits to non-Utah-residents entirely. Others have suggested that we require non-Utah-residents to come to Utah to take our class, or require that only Utah residents be permitted to be instructors for the Utah permit.

    I believe that requiring non-Utah-residents in shall issue States to get their home-State permit before getting a Utah permit is the least onerous, and most likely beneficial thing we can reasonably do.

    I expect some will disagree. But I hope all will think carefully about the various alternatives before too heavily condemning this one.

    Charles

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jensen View Post
    Bad proposal indeed. This would mean that residents of Illinois and Wisconsin, and other States as well, would be ineligible to apply for our permit.
    Not to mention VT.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Not to mention VT.
    The proposal would apply only to persons from shall issue States. It is intended to protect recognition of the Utah permit.

    Of course, if non-Utah-residents who so value and benefit from the Utah permit wanted to ever actually help us with our gun laws here in Utah, that would great. I look forward to the hearing about pro-gun groups getting donations specifically for use in Utah, or for solid pro-RKBA candidates in Utah to get donations from outside Utah to help defeat anti-gun opponents. Even a few letters or phone calls to our legislature about how having a Utah permit makes Utah the ski or other tourist destination of choice (say over Colorado) would be nice.

    Charles

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    The proposal would apply only to persons from shall issue States. It is intended to protect recognition of the Utah permit.

    Of course, if non-Utah-residents who so value and benefit from the Utah permit wanted to ever actually help us with our gun laws here in Utah, that would great. I look forward to the hearing about pro-gun groups getting donations specifically for use in Utah, or for solid pro-RKBA candidates in Utah to get donations from outside Utah to help defeat anti-gun opponents. Even a few letters or phone calls to our legislature about how having a Utah permit makes Utah the ski or other tourist destination of choice (say over Colorado) would be nice.

    Charles
    I firmly believe everyone has a God given right to self defense. This right is reinforced by our Constitution.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I firmly believe everyone has a God given right to self defense. This right is reinforced by our Constitution.
    As do I. And so I'm firmly supporting Rep. Wimmer's constitutional carry bill that will respect law abiding adults' right to peacefully carry a gun (openly or concealed, loaded or not) without needing to get any permit at all.

    But so far as Utah's permit goes, I put the interests of Utah residents above those of non-residents. We are the ones who put in the effort to elect good legislators and governors so that we have the permit we do. If the choice is between a permit that works really well for Utah residents and a permit that is of some nominal value to non-Utah-residents, I will side with Utah residents every time.

    I welcome law abiding, peaceable people--especially those who will help support and advance RKBA--to make Utah their home and become Utah residents if they'd like.

    Charles

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    As do I. And so I'm firmly supporting Rep. Wimmer's constitutional carry bill that will respect law abiding adults' right to peacefully carry a gun (openly or concealed, loaded or not) without needing to get any permit at all.

    But so far as Utah's permit goes, I put the interests of Utah residents above those of non-residents. We are the ones who put in the effort to elect good legislators and governors so that we have the permit we do. If the choice is between a permit that works really well for Utah residents and a permit that is of some nominal value to non-Utah-residents, I will side with Utah residents every time.

    I welcome law abiding, peaceable people--especially those who will help support and advance RKBA--to make Utah their home and become Utah residents if they'd like.

    Charles
    I'm confused by that. So you'd support a Constitutional Carry, unloaded carry bill or do you mean you support how and where people choose to carry?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I'm confused by that. So you'd support a Constitutional Carry, unloaded carry bill or do you mean you support how and where people choose to carry?
    The constitutional carry bill will allow people to carry without needing a permit. It will be a personal decision as to whether or not to conceal, whether or not to carry loaded. I support the bill in that form.

    Charles

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    The constitutional carry bill will allow people to carry without needing a permit. It will be a personal decision as to whether or not to conceal, whether or not to carry loaded. I support the bill in that form.

    Charles
    Just wanted to get that clarified.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  13. #13
    Regular Member Michael Hopkins's Avatar
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    Non-issue states

    If I read correctly on the rundown that USSC had regarding this bill, it said someone from another state who wanted to obtain a UT permit would have to acquire a permit from their home state first, if they were a "shall-issue" state. I'm guessing this would somewhat address the issue of IL, for example, where permit issue is a real problem.

    Mike

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