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Thread: Detroit News - Michigan law requires open carry in some venues

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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    Detroit News - Michigan law requires open carry in some venues

    Open-carry defenders aim to educate
    But some want lawmakers to set more limits on where unconcealed handguns are allowed
    Steve Pardo / The Detroit News

    Roseville — Scott Webb's final act before he left for the grocery store on Thursday was to pick up a handgun and strap it to his waist — a routine he's followed for 14 years.
    Scott is the president of the Michigan chapter of Open Carry Inc., a pro-gun lobby whose goal, members say, is to educate residents and even law enforcement on the right to carry an unconcealed weapon in public. The state has always allowed people to carry a firearm — with a few exceptions — but awareness is growing as the group continues to challenge municipalities that try to limit people from walking around with a gun.

    . . .


    The laws can be confusing and changes would need to come from the state. A person can carry a handgun, if it's exposed in full view and holstered, everywhere except a bank, house of worship, court, theater, sports arena, day care center, hospital or a bar. Those places also are off-limits to a person with a concealed pistol license who has their weapon hidden. But a person with a concealed pistol license is exempt from the restrictions and can carry a gun into those places, if the weapon is not concealed.

    From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110107/...aim-to-educate
    Last edited by Mike; 01-07-2011 at 09:30 AM.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Dammit Scott, there you go showing off again.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Story is no longer available.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    All right who said this because I sure didn't. Even though they state I did.

    "Open carry is the right that is enumerated in the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution," said Brian Jeffs, a Clinton County resident who authored a children's book entitled "My Parents Open Carry."
    "If you look at the time of our founding fathers and look at their perspective on arms, they were clearly talking about openly carried arms. Only cads and scoundrels carried concealed weapons."

    This is a frighting quote, even unconstitutional ones Officer?


    "We enforce the laws the Legislature enacts," Maike said. "It's legal in the state of Michigan. If the Legislature chooses to change the law, we'll enforce any law they've written."


    From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110107/...#ixzz1AM8VNhfv

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    I suppose it IS their job to enforce the Law as written. My radar didn't go off when I read that. Overall, a good article. Only a couple factual inaccuracies. The most glaring error is that Cities aren't asking for a ban on open carry at events, they want it to be illegal to carry ALL guns, open or concealed at events. That's kind of a big deal as it once again plays the concealed guys against us.
    Last edited by scot623; 01-07-2011 at 09:09 AM.

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    Regular Member quarter horseman's Avatar
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    we'll enforce any law they've written[/B]."


    I didnt like that statement either, how about enforce constitutional laws insted. That comment (any law they've written) in my opinion believe most LEA's would do that very thing.
    Last edited by quarter horseman; 01-07-2011 at 09:24 AM.

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    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    One of the obvious questions that wasnít asked when bringing up the matter of imposing more restrictions on where law abiding citizens can openly carry their handguns is:"Have we OCers been so much of a problem in the past that we need more legal restrictions to hem us in?"

    To a degree, I could understand if there has been an influx of gun related violence due to otherwise law abiding citizens who choose to open carry acting up in public, given that its awareness is rising. But that hasnít been the case, the presence of a firearm doesnít make law abiding citizens suddenly go berserk.

    Notice too, that the mass regular citizenry isnít clamoring for any change regarding open carry, this is nothing more than a few anti-gun, Leftist, elitist, politicians proposing to solve a problem that doesnít exist.
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

    "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    This article was listed in today's Gongwer distribution. Gongwer is a news service that caters to people and State Government and those who want to stay abreast of State Government. MANY many State employees and officials get a Gongwer email each day.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    I suppose it IS their job to enforce the Law as written. My radar didn't go off when I read that. Overall, a good article. Only a couple factual inaccuracies. The most glaring error is that Cities aren't asking for a ban on open carry at events, they want it to be illegal to carry ALL guns, open or concealed at events. That's kind of a big deal as it once again plays the concealed guys against us.
    another factual inaccuracy is that WITH a CPL you CAN conceal OR OC in a bank
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    I left a few "choice" comments for this article...

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    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    I left a few "choice" comments for this article...
    Yes, I read them, and you did very well. The post where you went straight to the point in dispelling the same old tired myths about open carry, it was like three smashing K.O. blows against ignorance. Well done sir!
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

    "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    H/T dougwg (MGO Posting)

    I posted this at the site:

    Please note that the 3rd Picture showing Open vs. Concealed Carry is wrong. The Open Carry Picture should be showing a firearm carried OWB (Outside Waist Band) instead of IWB (Inside Waist Band). Currently, IWB Open Carry is a "gray area" and most MI Courts consider this CONCEALED. Carrying in this way without a CPL will most likely get you in trouble.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    Yes, I read them, and you did very well. The post where you went straight to the point in dispelling the same old tired myths about open carry, it was like three smashing K.O. blows against ignorance. Well done sir!
    I loved your post (paraphrased): "Is this currently a problem?"

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    This is a [frightening] quote, even unconstitutional ones Officer?

    "We enforce the laws the Legislature enacts," Maike said. "It's legal in the state of Michigan. If the Legislature chooses to change the law, we'll enforce any law they've written."
    That MSP spokesperson is completely wrong. They are not sworn to "enforce any law written". MI Constitution, Article XI, Section 1 "Oath of public officers":

    All officers, legislative, executive and judicial, before entering upon the duties of their
    respective offices, shall take and subscribe the following oath or affirmation: I do solemnly
    swear (or affirm) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the constitution
    of this state, and that I will faithfully discharge the duties of the office of . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    according to the best of my ability. No other oath, affirmation, or any religious test shall be
    required as a qualification for any office or public trust.
    If a law is written that is not in accordance with the Constitution of the United States or the constitution of Michigan, it is a "faithful discharge" of duty to not enforce it and take your concerns about it up the chain of command.

    I was in the military, and we had a similar oath. We were told often that we had a duty not to obey orders, rules of engagement, or any other form of direction if it were illegal or otherwise violated our oath. If we did, we were told, we would be subject to criminal punishment.

    The MSP, or at least this spokesperson, is in need of a refresher on that concept.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    ďHe who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.Ē--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    That MSP spokesperson is completely wrong. They are not sworn to "enforce any law written". MI Constitution, Article XI, Section 1 "Oath of public officers":

    If a law is written that is not in accordance with the Constitution of the United States or the constitution of Michigan, it is a "faithful discharge" of duty to not enforce it and take your concerns about it up the chain of command.

    I was in the military, and we had a similar oath. We were told often that we had a duty not to obey orders, rules of engagement, or any other form of direction if it were illegal or otherwise violated our oath. If we did, we were told, we would be subject to criminal punishment.

    The MSP, or at least this spokesperson, is in need of a refresher on that concept.
    I believe Autosurgeon has a relationship with this person due to his work on MSP Update #86. I am sure he can get the message across to her...

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    Since we know that many lawmakers are getting emails about this from the anti news source, how many of us have sent our reps an email countering their points?

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Since we know that many lawmakers are getting emails about this from the anti news source, how many of us have sent our reps an email countering their points?
    I have! Everyone else is welcome to as well!

  19. #19
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Some education is in order over here...

    http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...push_educ.html

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    I suppose it IS their job to enforce the Law as written. My radar didn't go off when I read that. Overall, a good article. Only a couple factual inaccuracies. The most glaring error is that Cities aren't asking for a ban on open carry at events, they want it to be illegal to carry ALL guns, open or concealed at events. That's kind of a big deal as it once again plays the concealed guys against us.
    You must become more cynical They are supposed to enforce constitutional laws. If Michigan created a law that told MSP to shoot all 38 year old males the OC, would MSP enforce that law and shoot??? That was my only point.

    If you mean it was a good article in the fact that I never said what they quoted me as saying then I guess.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  21. #21
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Some education is in order over here...

    http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...push_educ.html
    Wow what a crappy story with no research done at all. He wants MOC to work with the Detroit Police, something we've done for two years. Even dares us to come and OC in Detroit. Idiot.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  22. #22
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Wow what a crappy story with no research done at all. He wants MOC to work with the Detroit Police, something we've done for two years. Even dares us to come and OC in Detroit. Idiot.
    Here is the "education" I provided to the author (and anyone who reads the comments if they published it).

    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit, mlive
    To the author of this article...

    Short Version: You are a FUDD of the highest order. Your research skills are lacking and your assumptions are egregiously wrong.

    Long Version: Let's take a look at the following points in your article. Full Disclosure: I am a person who Openly or Concealed Carries in Daily Life.

    Point #1: The Detroit News Article presents a media slant not present in real life. If anyone has been paying attention to the Royal Oak, Berkley, or Huntington Woods City Commission/Council Meetings, you would find that they are requesting new Pistol Free Zones which would ban any form of carry, concealed or otherwise. The Open vs Concealed "controversy" is a Media Slant designed to divide Firearm Owners, as the true nature of these Legislative Requests is to ban all forms of carry at specific events. Please do not fall for this ruse, although it appears you have already been "had".

    Point #2: You have no conceptual understanding of the term "arms", which includes firearms. I believe you will find a "Saturday Night Special" clearly falls into the category of firearms. Since many people are low income and the "Saturday Night Special" is loosely defined as an "inexpensive handgun", are you against persons such as these having a means of Self-Protection?

    Point #3: The Michigan Constitution Article I Section 6 clearly spells out every person's right to provide for their own self-protection. My exercise of Rights is not subject to your approval. While salient arguments can be made on both sides for Open and Concealed Carry, you sir attempt neither and simply spew man-hating epithets. What do you say to the women who Open Carry? Do they have some sort of envy that we should know about? Maybe you just didn't consider women in your article?

    Point #4: While it is generally understood that Freedom of Expression/Freedom Of Speech does not include the ability to incite panic without due cause (yelling FIRE in a crowded building), a person does not go around "muzzled" and unable to speak so they can actually yell "FIRE!" if the situation arises. The same goes with daily carry of a firearm. My decision to carry Openly is based upon many hours of research and from Personal Experience in self-defense situations boiled down to the following rationale: Possible Deterrent Factor and Ease of Access in an adrenaline-charged life or death situation. Are you for "muzzling" those who would provide for their own Self-Defense?

    Point #5: If you had done any research about the Arts, Beats, and Eats Contract Concern, you would have found that the City of Royal Oak was in direct violation of State Law (MCL 123.1102) as the contract stated "No Firearms" within the Festival Grounds (composed of Public Streets and Sidewalks). It just so happened that a member of the MI Open Carry Community wanted to attend the festival and asked online if firearms would be allowed. Members, such as myself and others, went to discuss the matter with the City privately first and then in the City Commission proceedings, which were largely ignored until the "media circus" started up. Are you for MI Cities violating the law or do you support persons working to stop such practices?

    Point #6: It is true that not as many Open Carry Activities occur "South of 8 Mile" as you put it, but this is likely to change now that cities are realizing that Open Carry is within the law (MSP Legal Update #86). If you had done the proper and necessary research prior to publication, you would know that some members of the Open Carry Community were denied entrance to Hart Plaza Events on multiple occasions and are starting work with the City of Detroit to change this. You would also have seen public posts by persons who have Open Carry Experiences within the City of Detroit. Since the Open Carry Community is a "grass-roots" organization, a person with a passion for a particular area of the efforts takes up the challenge of leading such efforts. Since your article appears to display such a passion, will you join us in furthering Firearm Rights within Detroit?

    Point #7: Self-Defense is not "black and white", the need for such knows no such artificially constructed division and your article injects "race" where there is no issue with such. If you wish to take on "race-induced" issues within Firearm Rights, then I humbly ask you to research how Pistol Registration within MI came about, if the Dr Sweets Case influenced that, and how the Pistol Registration Laws should be changed. Will you seriously undertake such a challenge or will you take the "easier-softer" method and simply stick to playing the "Race Card"?

    Point #8: As to the Gun "buy-back" programs, I completely agree with you that they are little worth and do not solve "gun violence" issues. Again, if you had done some research, you would know that some members of the Firearm Rights groups in MI actually went to the last Detroit Gun "Buy-Back" and were able to purchase a firearm from a person at FAIR MARKET VALUE before being accosted by the Detroit Police Department and order to leave. There are many firearms, holding high values and potentially historical items, that are turned in at such events for pennies on the dollar only to meet the smelter. The Gun "buy-back" programs are a misnomer, neither the Police Departments nor the Government previously owned these firearms and if they did, how did these guns get out of their control in the first place?

    I challenge you, the author of this article, to come to an Open Carry Seminar that are held in multiple locations. I believe you will find more than just "how to carry" being discussed there. The only issue will will face: researching where one will occur (but I trust that you can do it).

  23. #23
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Thanks for helping me keep up with the comments on MLIVE PD, I post as xd9sc.

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    Regular Member MarineSgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    another factual inaccuracy is that WITH a CPL you CAN conceal OR OC in a bank
    You can OC or CC in a bank with a CPL. Not a Federal Reserve Bank.
    Someone who can't be trusted to walk free in public with a firearm shouldn't be walking around free.

  25. #25
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Here is the "education" I provided to the author (and anyone who reads the comments if they published it).
    We also have worked with the Detroit Police and have OCed in Detroit, some of us do it all the time.
    Last edited by Venator; 01-08-2011 at 09:45 PM.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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