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Thread: The NRA supports giving immigrants the right to carry concealed...

  1. #1
    Regular Member CUOfficer's Avatar
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    The NRA supports giving immigrants the right to carry concealed...

    For those of you who support the NRA, give this a read and let me know what you think:

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/06...est=latestnews

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    If I understand it correctly. A person here legally can own a firearm even if they arent citizens. As long as they are "legal" it has always been that way. Are rights come from our creator, NOT from the Gov.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    No right is being granted here, permits are a privilege or looked at another way the infringement on a right.
    I do like expanding eligibility for permits because as restrictions lessen the path to Constitution carry becomes easier.
    This might is probably the first time I've sided with the NRA and ACLU against GOA, which has taken a bizarre stance in this case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CUOfficer View Post
    For those of you who support the NRA, give this a read and let me know what you think:

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/06...est=latestnews
    I think the NRA is spot-on. I can think of no rational reason to deny equal protection under the law to persons in our country legally.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    Sounds good to me. Why shouldn't immigrants be given the same permission slips as citizens?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wethepeople View Post
    Are rights come from our creator, NOT from the Gov.
    So god wrote our Bill of Rights? Interesting...

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlurker View Post
    So god wrote our Bill of Rights? Interesting...
    The BILL of RIGHTS is simply a LISTING of those RIGHTS that were felt to be either most important by the writers or most likely to be abused by the Government. I have no problem believing that the framers of our government were guided or inspired by a HIGHER POWER to as they discussed, debated, wrote, and SIGNED the DOCUMENTS that resulted in our great nation.

    OUR RIGHTS predate the BILL OF RIGHTS or any other listing of them. The rights PREDATE GOVERNMENT! In the US Declaration references to NATURE'S GOD are made as the source of as these RIGHTS.

    I have no problem saying that my rights come from God as I believe I came from God. If you prefer to say "NATURE"S GOD" go for it. It you prefer to say merely that your Rights predate a certain Government... go for it.

    The beginning and ending of this is OUR RIGHTS EXISTED BEFORE OUR GOVERNMENT EXISTED so these rights COULD NOT HAVE COME FROM GOVERNMENT!

    Getting Government to recognize OUR RIGHTS IS THE NEXT GREAT CHALLENGE!
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 01-07-2011 at 05:25 PM.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    ""Legal resident aliens—that is, non-citizens who legally live in the United States—have constitutional rights. No one, for example, would say that a state could prohibit a legal resident alien from freely practicing his religion or engaging in free speech,""


    The above is the crux of the issue. There is nothing about this fight that has anything to do with illegal immigrants. Do illegals have a fundamental right to self-defense, yes. Should illegal immigrants have access to acquiring a CCP, NO, they should be arrested and deported! Unless the illegal immigrant is starving to death or needs medical treatment due to a life-threatening health issue, they should immediately be deported, and not be allowed to access anything from our system.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    The beginning and ending of this is OUR RIGHTS EXISTED BEFORE OUR GOVERNMENT EXISTED so these rights COULD NOT HAVE COME FROM GOVERNMENT!

    If you are referring to fundamental rights, yes.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    This is also a current issue in my neck of the woods, western SD.

    http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/news...cc4c002e0.html

    After 9/11 the state law was changed to exclude legal non-citizens. Recently, the SD chapter of the ACLU challenged the law in federal court.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Immigrants, yes. Illegal immigrants, hell no!

    Quote Originally Posted by petrophase View Post
    After 9/11 the state law was changed to exclude legal non-citizens.
    Good for SD!

    Recently, the SD chapter of the ACLU challenged the law in federal court.
    Of all the knuckleheaded...

    I didn't serve my country for two decades just to watch the courts hand it over lock, stock, and barrel to those who are breaking the law.
    Last edited by since9; 01-08-2011 at 03:39 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Immigrants, yes. Illegal immigrants, hell no!



    Good for SD!



    Of all the knuckleheaded...

    I didn't serve my country for two decades just to watch the courts hand it over lock, stock, and barrel to those who are breaking the law.
    This one is NOT ILLEGAL, He has had a CCL for nearly 10 years. Other than the right to vote, under our laws he has nearly the same rights as a citizen, including it being legal for him to own firearms. He IS NOT breaking the law. SD changed on him in midstream.

    AS for illegals, send them all home or put them in jail as needed.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

    Politicians should serve two terms, one in office and one in prison.(borrowed from RioKid)

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    This one is NOT ILLEGAL, He has had a CCL for nearly 10 years. Other than the right to vote, under our laws he has nearly the same rights as a citizen, including it being legal for him to own firearms. He IS NOT breaking the law. SD changed on him in midstream.

    AS for illegals, send them all home or put them in jail as needed.
    Do you for a second think that the ACLU is participating in this case solely for the purpose of fighting for the right to carry for LEGAL aliens??? The ACLU couldn't care less about gun rights. This is a step on the way to normalizing ILLEGAL aliens. They just don't want to make the first case one about illegals.

    BTW, States should have the authority, without federal interference, to choose which privileges they extend to non-citizen legal residents. They should have no choice on which rights they extend. They should be free to deny the privilege of concealing. They should not be able to deny the right to carry.

    As I said in the other thread, the right to a license is not just oxymoronic, it is just plain moronic.

    If he can carry unimpeded without a license, there is no problem. If, in order to carry, he must have a license, that requirement is the problem, not that the State won't allow him to conceal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by petrophase View Post
    This is also a current issue in my neck of the woods, western SD.

    http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/news...cc4c002e0.html

    After 9/11 the state law was changed to exclude legal non-citizens. Recently, the SD chapter of the ACLU challenged the law in federal court.
    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Immigrants, yes. Illegal immigrants, hell no!

    Good for SD!
    "Good" for doing what? Denying legal non-citizens an otherwise legal method of Self-Defense?
    Quote Originally Posted by since9
    Of all the knuckleheaded...
    Knuckleheaded? The ACLU is doing exactly what they should be doing; standing up for the Rights of those who are deserving of equal protection under the law. Why are you banging your head about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by since9
    I didn't serve my country for two decades just to watch the courts hand it over lock, stock, and barrel to those who are breaking the law.
    Um, this is about persons who are legal, not about persons who are illegal.
    Last edited by wrightme; 01-08-2011 at 10:25 AM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Do you for a second think that the ACLU is participating in this case solely for the purpose of fighting for the right to carry for LEGAL aliens??? The ACLU couldn't care less about gun rights. This is a step on the way to normalizing ILLEGAL aliens. They just don't want to make the first case one about illegals.

    So, they are attempting to normalize illegal aliens through first arguing that legal aliens should have the right to a CCP? The normalization of illegal aliens and the issue of legal aliens having access to CCP's are two separate issues. I am not sure how the two relate to one another in such a way that one would beget the other.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    I'm a LEGAL Immigrant and in NM I can not get a NM CCW because I'm not a citizen so I have to get a Florida non resident CCW if i want to carry concealed but I'm glad that they allow open carry here
    A gun Owner Is A Citizen
    Anyone Else is a Subject

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Btw, to make clear here, we're talking about a permanent resident alien, not an illegal immigrant:

    Say v. Adams

    While aliens are a suspect class, distinctions made between different classes of aliens are not subject to strict scrutiny. For example, “classification . . . based on the legality of the alien’s presence in the country under federal law (lawful permanent resident aliens vs. illegal aliens) and/or the length of time the federal government has authorized the alien to stay in the country (permanent vs. temporary)” is not a distinction that burdens a suspect class. League of United Latin American Citizens v. Bredesen, 500 F.3d 523, 531 (6th Cir. 2007). However, K.R.S. § 237.110(4)(b) clearly makes a distinction between “citizens” and “aliens,” and not merely subclasses of aliens.
    Under Supreme Court and Sixth Circuit precedent, “lawful permanent residents are the only subclass of aliens who have been treated as a suspect class.” Bredesen, 500 F.3d. at 533.
    The citizenship provision allows citizens to obtain a CCDW license, and prohibits all aliens, including lawful permanent residents, from obtaining a license. On the basis of precedent binding on the Court, Plaintiff, as a lawful permanent resident of the United States, is entitled to the special protection afforded by strict scrutiny review.

    So, LPR's are subject to strict scrutiny review in terms of equal protection. Citizenship gains you voting and taking political office, and being able to do certain public safety jobs, and certain sensitive government jobs. Most LPR's don't do any of those things.

    Equal protection applies in various ways to all persons. If you don't agree with the idea that LPR's can carry around a piece of metal that should honestly be treated no differently than carrying a book (I thought you guys are hard core and no-compromise and all?), then you can begin the process of getting the constitution amended to reflect your beliefs. It's that simple....

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    Quote Originally Posted by RogueAussie View Post
    I'm a LEGAL Immigrant and in NM I can not get a NM CCW because I'm not a citizen so I have to get a Florida non resident CCW if i want to carry concealed but I'm glad that they allow open carry here
    And that is my point: If you are allowed to carry without a permit, then it is a licensed privilege to conceal. There is no right to privileges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    Btw, to make clear here, we're talking about a permanent resident alien, not an illegal immigrant...
    Strawman Alert.

    I just reread every post here. No one said he was an illegal immigrant. A few posts, including mine, also mentioned opinions regarding carry by illegal aliens or the ACLU's possible ulterior motive of normalizing illegal aliens.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Strawman Alert.

    I just reread every post here. No one said he was an illegal immigrant. A few posts, including mine, also mentioned opinions regarding carry by illegal aliens or the ACLU's possible ulterior motive of normalizing illegal aliens.
    Can the state prohibit the carrying of a bible or a book to non-US citizens concealed? Can the state prohibit the possession of a bible or book inside the home of a non-US Citizen?

    They can't, because it's a civil right. However, you can attack that on equal protection rather than using the underlying 1A or 2A things.

    Do not treat arms possession as a second class right to the possession of books. Underlying motives or no, that is not really the issue here.

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    eye, here is the interchange where the conflation occurred


    Quote Originally Posted by petrophase View Post
    This is also a current issue in my neck of the woods, western SD.

    http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/news...cc4c002e0.html

    After 9/11 the state law was changed to exclude legal non-citizens. Recently, the SD chapter of the ACLU challenged the law in federal court.
    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Immigrants, yes. Illegal immigrants, hell no!



    Good for SD!



    Of all the knuckleheaded...

    I didn't serve my country for two decades just to watch the courts hand it over lock, stock, and barrel to those who are breaking the law.
    SD denied legal non-citizens, and this information got responded to as if SD had denied illegal non-citizens.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member flagellum's Avatar
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    Agree with NRA/ACLU. We are talking about a LEGAL immigrant, the same class of people that are also free to speak, practice religion, receive a fair trail, etc. in this country.

    Also I reject notions being put out that is some way a part of the ALCU's hidden liberal agenda.
    Last edited by flagellum; 01-08-2011 at 06:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Strawman Alert.

    I just reread every post here. No one said he was an illegal immigrant. A few posts, including mine, also mentioned opinions regarding carry by illegal aliens or the ACLU's possible ulterior motive of normalizing illegal aliens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    Can the state prohibit the carrying of a bible or a book to non-US citizens concealed? Can the state prohibit the possession of a bible or book inside the home of a non-US Citizen?

    They can't, because it's a civil right. However, you can attack that on equal protection rather than using the underlying 1A or 2A things.

    Do not treat arms possession as a second class right to the possession of books. Underlying motives or no, that is not really the issue here.
    How is your post a reply to mine???

    Concealment is not a civil right. Carry (actually the ability to defend oneself) is a natural right. If he is not barred from carry, then his rights are not being violated.

    Your last paragraph is another strawman. Nowhere have I said, or even implied, that the possession of arms is a "second class right."

    Please, argue with what I actually say, not with what is convenient to refute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buster81 View Post
    Sounds good to me. Why shouldn't immigrants be given the same permission slips as citizens?
    This
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

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    Regular Member CUOfficer's Avatar
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    I posted this article because of this quote:

    [Pratt says the only reason the ACLU brought the suit is to pave the way for illegal aliens to have conceal carry permits.

    "They want to make it so illegal aliens have the same rights as everybody else...every little bit chipping away," he said.]

    Why didn't the guy just apply for citizenship since he'd been in the U.S. for 30 years?

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