The NRA supports giving immigrants the right to carry concealed...

eye, here is the interchange where the conflation occurred

petrophase said:

This is also a current issue in my neck of the woods, western SD.

http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/news/article_96ab561c-1a09-11e0-b68a-001cc4c002e0.html

After 9/11 the state law was changed to exclude legal non-citizens. Recently, the SD chapter of the ACLU challenged the law in federal court.

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since9 said:

Immigrants, yes. Illegal immigrants, hell no!



Good for SD!



Of all the knuckleheaded... :banghead:

I didn't serve my country for two decades just to watch the courts hand it over lock, stock, and barrel to those who are breaking the law.

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SD denied legal non-citizens, and this information got responded to as if SD had denied illegal non-citizens.

Agree with NRA/ACLU. We are talking about a LEGAL immigrant, the same class of people that are also free to speak, practice religion, receive a fair trail, etc. in this country.

Also I reject notions being put out that is some way a part of the ALCU's hidden liberal agenda.

eye95 said:

Strawman Alert.

I just reread every post here. No one said he was an illegal immigrant. A few posts, including mine, also mentioned opinions regarding carry by illegal aliens or the ACLU's possible ulterior motive of normalizing illegal aliens.

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Gray Peterson said:

Can the state prohibit the carrying of a bible or a book to non-US citizens concealed? Can the state prohibit the possession of a bible or book inside the home of a non-US Citizen?

They can't, because it's a civil right. However, you can attack that on equal protection rather than using the underlying 1A or 2A things.

Do not treat arms possession as a second class right to the possession of books. Underlying motives or no, that is not really the issue here.

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How is your post a reply to mine???

Concealment is not a civil right. Carry (actually the ability to defend oneself) is a natural right. If he is not barred from carry, then his rights are not being violated.

Your last paragraph is another strawman. Nowhere have I said, or even implied, that the possession of arms is a "second class right."

Please, argue with what I actually say, not with what is convenient to refute.

buster81 said:

Sounds good to me. Why shouldn't immigrants be given the same permission slips as citizens?

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This

I posted this article because of this quote:

[Pratt says the only reason the ACLU brought the suit is to pave the way for illegal aliens to have conceal carry permits.

"They want to make it so illegal aliens have the same rights as everybody else...every little bit chipping away," he said.]

Why didn't the guy just apply for citizenship since he'd been in the U.S. for 30 years?

If this goes through, then the Federal government and every State will be required to view the 2nd Amendment as it is worded: Shall not be infringed.

Remember, for every solution we create no less than 2 new problems.
Important questions to ask and some things to consider:

Are you here legally and can you prove lawful entry? If the answer is no, then you are a criminal and thus should not be allowed to possess. If we overturn this to allow illegals the ability to possess firearms then we must also overturn ANYONE who has been denied a firearm under the same premise.

Are you here on a Visa of any kind? If so, you shall not possess or own a firearm.

Are you here just visiting or conducting business from another country? If so, you shall not own or possess a firearm.

Are you a citizen or permanent resident alien that has held either status for a period less than 5 years? If so, your ability to be allowed to possess or own a firearm will come under further scrutiny until the government is satisfied that you have no terrorist ties and are not making contact with suspected terrorist Nations or groups.

Are you a permanent resident alien that entered legally? If so, then there should be no issue as there is genuine investment in the community and country.

REALteach4u said:

If this goes through, then the Federal government and every State will be required to view the 2nd Amendment as it is worded: Shall not be infringed.

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As nice as that would be, I don't think it can be pressed that far. It is more of an "equal protection" item than it is a 2nd Amendment Right item. They can carry. They cannot carry with equal protection of the laws.

I feel you should have to be a US citizen to keep & bear arms. either natural born or Naturalized.

Glock34 said:

I feel you should have to be a US citizen to keep & bear arms. either natural born or Naturalized.

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And the Brady campaign 'feel' that none of us should.

Thankfully, We are all subject to laws; not feelings. The ultimate law is the Constitution and the 14th Amndt states that no state shall "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws". That includes lawful resident aliens.

Glock34 said:

I feel you should have to be a US citizen to keep & bear arms. either natural born or Naturalized.

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If that's the case, then I "feel" that you should not be able to carry a gun in a vehicle or concealed on the person (like Wisconsin), unless you have LEO credentials (like me)

I've seen more violent citizens than I have legal aliens... maybe because they have something to lose.

Jared said:

If that's the case, then I "feel" that you should not be able to carry a gun in a vehicle or concealed on the person (like Wisconsin), unless you have LEO credentials (like me)

I've seen more violent citizens than I have legal aliens... maybe because they have something to lose.

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The 14th Amendment was put in place so the freed slaves after the Civil war could become citizens.It was NEVER intended to allow Illegals & their Anchor babies to be granted Citizen status so they could enjoy the rights - freedoms of Natural born & naturalized US citizens, including the right to keep & bear arms. The 14th Amendment needs to be repealed now. it's obsolete - a danger to this country & it's citizens..

Let's not go there LEO has a habit of making the laws up as they go the way it is- using what ever force they "feel" is appropriate at the time ( I think the framers are spinning in their graves seeing how much power the LEO's have in this country ) I doubt they had intended America to become a police state. Where the People feared the Government, not vise versa like Thomas Jefferson stated. . That's why alot of the none sheeple have issues with LEO. But I am not going to bash, because I do know a "few" very nice decent police officers locally.

You must be a LEO out in the boonies ? around here the "legal" Aliens are mostly MS13 Mexican Mafia & the violent citizens being the Banger demographic.

When folks say, "I feel that...," they mean, "It is my opinion that..." There is no need to use snark on folks who use that unfortunate wording. How about just dealing with how and why your opinion differs. My opinion differs from his. Let me state it without the words "I feel."

All lawful, sane, and sober adults should be able to possess and carry firearms. Legal alien residents should generally be allowed to carry. Illegal aliens don't fit the "lawful" part of the first sentence, and should not be allowed to carry as they are in a continual criminal state.

That being said, concealment is a State-licensed privilege, not a right. The State has the authority to deny that privilege to groups based on rationality. While I (and many of you don't) agree with the reasoning for denying licenses to non-citizens, it is rational. When we rationally disagree on policy, we use the republican process to change that policy. We should not use the courts because no one is being denied their rights.

If we disagree with opinions, let's disagree with civility and rationality, not snark.

You stated the following as if it was a fact. But, since there is no factual data presented to support it as fact, it is quite obvious that it is simply an opinion.

eye95 said:

Do you for a second think that the ACLU is participating in this case solely for the purpose of fighting for the right to carry for LEGAL aliens??? The ACLU couldn't care less about gun rights. This is a step on the way to normalizing ILLEGAL aliens. They just don't want to make the first case one about illegals.

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So, given that it is simply an opinion, we can respond simply by stating "in my opinion, you are incorrect."

wrightme said:

You stated the following as if it was a fact. But, since there is no factual data presented to support it as fact, it is quite obvious that it is simply an opinion.

So, given that it is simply an opinion, we can respond simply by stating "in my opinion, you are incorrect."

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Feel free.

Glock34 said:

The 14th Amendment was put in place so the freed slaves after the Civil war could become citizens.It was NEVER intended to allow Illegals & their Anchor babies to be granted Citizen status so they could enjoy the rights - freedoms of Natural born & naturalized US citizens, including the right to keep & bear arms. The 14th Amendment needs to be repealed now. it's obsolete - a danger to this country & it's citizens..

Let's not go there LEO has a habit of making the laws up as they go the way it is- using what ever force they "feel" is appropriate at the time ( I think the framers are spinning in their graves seeing how much power the LEO's have in this country ) I doubt they had intended America to become a police state. Where the People feared the Government, not vise versa like Thomas Jefferson stated. . That's why alot of the none sheeple have issues with LEO. But I am not going to bash, because I do know a "few" very nice decent police officers locally.

You must be a LEO out in the boonies ? around here the "legal" Aliens are mostly MS13 Mexican Mafia & the violent citizens being the Banger demographic.

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You have no idea what you are talking about. MS13 is from El Salvador, not Mexico, but I guess all those brown people are all the same right? That's the reason why you don't like non-citizens... I understand. You make a blanket statement that "legal" aliens are gangbangers... I would say you are a bit of a racist, but I never met you so I don't know for sure.

The boonies? I guess you don't leave Green Bay much, look at my location, Wayne County. There is nothing "boonie" about it. But Wayne County has a lot of black and brown people, so you may feel uncomfortable here.

I am well aware of LEO issues, I was just pointing out your ignorance in a sarcastic way.... anyway, don't forget to unload your pistol before getting into your vehicle in Green Bay... citizen

What you believe doesn't matter. The Bill of Rights, the Constitution is a Document of Men, all while some of the framers and signers did express higher power, they purposely kept out of the Constitution that idea of God. There is no reference in the Constitution to God whatsoever for the simple reason that they wanted to document to stand by itself, to stand in whole as a Document of Law.

The debate about God and the Constitution and our framers in my opinion is interesting but irrelevant and prevents the real argument about why we have certain rights including owing, carrying and using a gun if necessary: The Constitution gives us the Right. Period.

JoeSparky said:

The BILL of RIGHTS is simply a LISTING of those RIGHTS that were felt to be either most important by the writers or most likely to be abused by the Government. I have no problem believing that the framers of our government were guided or inspired by a HIGHER POWER to as they discussed, debated, wrote, and SIGNED the DOCUMENTS that resulted in our great nation.

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Actually, MS13 is from the United States originally just California prison gang that was then exported into El Salvador.

http://www.history.com/shows/gangland/articles/ms-13-suburbia

Jared said:

You have no idea what you are talking about. MS13 is from El Salvador, not Mexico, but I guess all those brown people are all the same right? That's the reason why you don't like non-citizens... I understand. You make a blanket statement that "legal" aliens are gangbangers... I would say you are a bit of a racist, but I never met you so I don't know for sure.

The boonies? I guess you don't leave Green Bay much, look at my location, Wayne County. There is nothing "boonie" about it. But Wayne County has a lot of black and brown people, so you may feel uncomfortable here.

I am well aware of LEO issues, I was just pointing out your ignorance in a sarcastic way.... anyway, don't forget to unload your pistol before getting into your vehicle in Green Bay... citizen

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Pace said:

What you believe doesn't matter. The Bill of Rights, the Constitution is a Document of Men, all while some of the framers and signers did express higher power, they purposely kept out of the Constitution that idea of God. There is no reference in the Constitution to God whatsoever for the simple reason that they wanted to document to stand by itself, to stand in whole as a Document of Law.

The debate about God and the Constitution and our framers in my opinion is interesting but irrelevant and prevents the real argument about why we have certain rights including owing, carrying and using a gun if necessary: The Constitution gives us the Right. Period.

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I must disagree. The Constitution does not "give" rights. We brought them into this pact, enumerating them as protections against governmental usurpation. Whether you believe the rights to be "natural" or "God-given," they preexist the Constitution.

Pace said:

Actually, MS13 is from the United States originally just California prison gang that was then exported into El Salvador.

http://www.history.com/shows/gangland/articles/ms-13-suburbia

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Correct, but it's a little more than that. They were incorporated if you will in California however it was by El Sal's who were connected to the death squads.

Either way, they have nothing to do with Mexico and they rival Mexican gangs. But Glock34 wouldn't know anything about that.

Open Question for anyone against the NRA's decision.

Why would you NOT want a LEGAL citizen, someone who jumped through all our hoops, somone who is LAWABIDING, denied the right to carry concealed?

Ive read some comments that were just flat out Blanket statements of HUGE groups of people, that make me sick. The more Law Abiding citizens we have carrying firearms the safer I feel.

Everyone needs to stop bringin up ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT into this thread, thats not what is being debated. Nobody is going to argue that a illegal immigrant should be allowed to carry a firearm.