Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 46

Thread: OT- "Don't draw unless you plan to shoot"?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,048

    OT- "Don't draw unless you plan to shoot"?

    What are your thoughts on this phrase? Personally, I disagree. I believe "Don't draw unless you are WILLING to shoot."

    There are circumstances that may warrant drawing your weapon, but not firing, if the threat is no longer there.
    I will only shoot if there is immediate threat to life or limb, to myself, or someone else in my presence. If I am walking home from the store late at night, and a man comes at me with a weapon, (and is within close proximity) then that justifies shooting to stop the threat.

    If I am walking home from the store late at night, and I am confronted by a group of (presumed) unarmed men who don't have the kindest of intentions, then I will draw my firearm if I feel it's necessary at that given time. If the threat ceases (as in the individuals flee) then there is no need to fire a weapon.

    What are your thoughts on Draw VS Draw+Shoot?

  2. #2
    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,018
    I agree with your thought process here. The first statement is tossed around alot by many mall ninjas who are nothing but internet tough guys.
    Certified Glock Armorer

    "A government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." -- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)

    A 1911 that works properly is as rare as a Glock that doesn't.

  3. #3
    Regular Member USMC1911's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, Washington, USA
    Posts
    190
    I have been trained that "IF" I perceive a threat, my weapon is in my hand. It is not going to do me any good holstered. It will still be on safe and I will be indexed, however it will be in my hand, next to my leg or at the low ready.
    Semper Fi
    I am a Sheep Dog, ... Wolves Beware !

  4. #4
    Regular Member afcarry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Southeast of KC Mossouri
    Posts
    206
    Firing your weapon may not be the only instance of the use of deadly force. In some municipalities, drawing your weapon is in itself using deadly force. In my opinion the need for the use of deadly force is inarguably the prerequisite for the use of deadly force. If you decide to carry a weapon daily, you need to be willing to use it in the ever-so highly unlikely occasion when your life depends on it. Should the thought of drawing your weapon cross your mind, then you damn sure better be ready to use it. This is where it gets complicated. For me there are five conditions that must exist before I draw my weapon. There has to be an immediate, otherwise unavoidable danger of death, or grave bodily harm to an innocent person. If all five of these conditions do not exist, or you have an unclear understanding of the situation, then you should not use deadly force. You have to be able to determine without a doubt the intentions of the individual initiating the confrontation. If he says "I'm going to kill you." thats a good sign. If he has a weapon, that alone may not constitute the use of deadly force. If they make an attempt to grab my weapon, I don't care what the law says, they were aggressively trying to disarm me and the only indication that they provided me with was that they were going to use deadly force on me with it. Just because they are physically assaulting you (slapping you in a metro in DC, or outside the movie theater in Virginia), that may not justify the use of deadly force. One thing that may, however, in that case is disparity of force. If a body builder is attacking me, then I may be justified because I have far less of a chance of surviving due to my physical limitations, so to balance the scale I use a tool, my 1911. If a mugger says he is going to attack me tomorrow at the grocery store, and then tomorrow, you see on the news that I shot a mugger in a grocery store, I am probably on my way to jail. I could have avoided that confrontation by not going to the grocery store. So in short: Before you draw your weapon, be sure you HAVE to use it. Its the only truly safe way.
    An individual should not choose the caliber, cartridge, and bullet that will kill an an animal when everything is right; rather, he should choose ones that will kill the most efficiently when everything goes wrong

  5. #5
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Yakima, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,463
    That is one of the issues with these one liners, they are very open to interpretation.
    Unfortunately many of these I believe come from instructors and repeated down the line with out the benefit of the instruction given.

    It could also stem from past, present or even future action of some who are willing to draw a weapon to quick or in situations that do not rise to the level of deadly force.

    When it comes to this statement I do not disagree with other assessments.

    If one chooses to carry a firearm for self defense one must be willing when required to save a life to use it, otherwise leave it at home.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  6. #6
    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Renton, Wa
    Posts
    662
    I think this question also depends on where you live. Some states punish law abiding citizens for merely owning a firearm, let alone carrying or actually using it for self-defense. In Arizona, if you have a reasonable suspicion that your safety is in danger by the actions of a third party you can initiate a "defensive display" as its called in Arizona State Law. You can inform of the presence of a firearm, expose or display the firearm, or place one's hand on the firearm as to indicate the capability to defend oneself:

    A.R.S. 13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition
    (SB 1243, enacted July 13, 2009, effective Sep. 30, 2009.)

    A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

    B. This section does not apply to a person who:

    1. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force.

    2. Uses a firearm during the commission of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706 or violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03.

    C. This section does not require the defensive display of a firearm before the use of physical force or the threat of physical force by a person who is otherwise justified in the use or threatened use of physical force.

    D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:

    1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.

    2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

    3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.

    The state of Washington doesn't have such a defensive display law in place but, it does have a solid brandishing law.

    RCW 9.41.270
    Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm Unlawful carrying or handling Penalty Exceptions.

    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    (2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

    (a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

    (b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

    (d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

    (e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments

    Though if in a state like NY, NJ, or Maryland -- good luck.

  7. #7
    Regular Member afcarry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Southeast of KC Mossouri
    Posts
    206
    I like Arizona. Not many states at all have the defensive display. Whether its in a states statutes or not, I still personally believe that the defensive display definitely beats a full out draw to visually explain one's intentions to defend them self. Its a much safer manner.
    An individual should not choose the caliber, cartridge, and bullet that will kill an an animal when everything is right; rather, he should choose ones that will kill the most efficiently when everything goes wrong

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,048
    Quote Originally Posted by afcarry View Post
    Firing your weapon may not be the only instance of the use of deadly force. In some municipalities, drawing your weapon is in itself using deadly force. In my opinion the need for the use of deadly force is inarguably the prerequisite for the use of deadly force. If you decide to carry a weapon daily, you need to be willing to use it in the ever-so highly unlikely occasion when your life depends on it. Should the thought of drawing your weapon cross your mind, then you damn sure better be ready to use it. This is where it gets complicated. For me there are five conditions that must exist before I draw my weapon. There has to be an immediate, otherwise unavoidable danger of death, or grave bodily harm to an innocent person. If all five of these conditions do not exist, or you have an unclear understanding of the situation, then you should not use deadly force. You have to be able to determine without a doubt the intentions of the individual initiating the confrontation. If he says "I'm going to kill you." thats a good sign. If he has a weapon, that alone may not constitute the use of deadly force. If they make an attempt to grab my weapon, I don't care what the law says, they were aggressively trying to disarm me and the only indication that they provided me with was that they were going to use deadly force on me with it. Just because they are physically assaulting you (slapping you in a metro in DC, or outside the movie theater in Virginia), that may not justify the use of deadly force. One thing that may, however, in that case is disparity of force. If a body builder is attacking me, then I may be justified because I have far less of a chance of surviving due to my physical limitations, so to balance the scale I use a tool, my 1911. If a mugger says he is going to attack me tomorrow at the grocery store, and then tomorrow, you see on the news that I shot a mugger in a grocery store, I am probably on my way to jail. I could have avoided that confrontation by not going to the grocery store. So in short: Before you draw your weapon, be sure you HAVE to use it. Its the only truly safe way.
    I agree with everything except your last scenario. You, by law, have every right to be at the grocery store. If a man told me he's going to break into my house tomorrow, I am not going to simply leave my house to avoid the altercation. I am going to stand my ground, which I have every right to do in Washington State. (I did notice you are not from WA, so you may be familiar with a different set of laws)

  9. #9
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Yakima, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,463
    Quote Originally Posted by afcarry View Post
    If a mugger says he is going to attack me tomorrow at the grocery store, and then tomorrow, you see on the news that I shot a mugger in a grocery store, I am probably on my way to jail. I could have avoided that confrontation by not going to the grocery store.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    I agree with everything except your last scenario. You, by law, have every right to be at the grocery store. If a man told me he's going to break into my house tomorrow, I am not going to simply leave my house to avoid the altercation. I am going to stand my ground, which I have every right to do in Washington State. (I did notice you are not from WA, so you may be familiar with a different set of laws)
    Since this is the Washington State Forum and Discussions Aaron reply is dead on, as citizens in the State has every right they can legally be and no threats of harm to one removes any right to self defense.

    There maybe States where you have to retreat if possible but this is not one of them.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Renton, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,201
    Quote Originally Posted by afcarry View Post
    I like Arizona. Not many states at all have the defensive display. Whether its in a states statutes or not, I still personally believe that the defensive display definitely beats a full out draw to visually explain one's intentions to defend them self. Its a much safer manner.
    IIRC, Montana also has a law that says defensive display is legal. Of course, OC is all the "defensive display" most of us need!
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

  11. #11
    Regular Member ghosthunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    MOUNT VERNON, Washington, USA
    Posts
    280
    Another question is if you draw and the suspect flees. Would you call 911 and report it? I would.

    We have touched on alot of this before on other threads. I am 60,I do not feel I have to take a beating since I could be killed. I might draw and I would shoot if I felt I was in danger. I also carry a pepper blaster 24 / 7. Each instance will be different.

    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

    "unlawful force by another"

    In my veiw force maybe pushing or slapping me around.

  12. #12
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Marysville, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,522
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    What are your thoughts on this phrase? Personally, I disagree. I believe "Don't draw unless you are WILLING to shoot."

    +1
    I would hope that the mere presense of a firearm would thwart any further action on their part. I agree that hopefully if I do have to draw on someone, that it will deter them from forcing me to use any further action, and I wont have to deal with the after math of being forced to shoot someone. My goal as a firearm owner who carries, is to never have to draw my firearm, exept to target practice.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    11
    Since this is the Washington state forum we should limit the responses to Washington state law and not reference laws in other states otherwise we (I, myself!) could get confused. I don't know what RCW-9.41 specifically says about this but as a matter of self preservation if I feel a threat is imminent I will draw and pray to God I don't have to fire. Once you squeeze the trigger it is a life altering event! I'm pretty sure it is lawful to draw without firing because Dave Workman has done it and didn't go to jail! If you draw in the face of imminent danger and the threat disipates or receeds then that is a better thing for all concerned than pulling the trigger IMO.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    South Whidbey, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,812

    WILLING vs PLANNING

    I think there needs to be some differentiation here between willing to shoot versus planning. I think it was inferred above, the admonition about "don't draw unless you're WILLING to shoot" seems (at least to me) directed at those people who might draw without being mentally & spiritually prepared to actually fire, maybe thinking (consciously or otherwise), "if I just show the gun the bad guy will get scared & run away." There is a real danger there. We need a defensive display statute in Washington (or just follow the dadgum Constitution in the first place, I think "bearing arms" covers defensive display), and keep in mind that in the majority of self defense situations with a firearm, the gun is never fired, thereby making it a defensive display by default. Being WILLING to fire doesn't necessarily mean doing so, enough can change in those fractions of a second between clearing leather and getting your sight that pulling the trigger is no longer necessary.

    And as I always say, what is lawful under the current laws is not necessarily the same as what is RIGHT.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  15. #15
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North of Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    5,953
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    What are your thoughts on this phrase? Personally, I disagree. I believe "Don't draw unless you are WILLING to shoot."
    I would carry this thought a little further. Don't even carry a firearm if you are not willing to shoot and possibly take a life in self defense.

    There are some that feel the mere presence of a firearm on their person is enough to guarantee their safety. If they are ever in trouble they will only need to show it. But deep down inside they are against taking human life and are not sure that they can actually shoot someone. This reservation will only insure one of a couple of outcomes. One is that they will have the gun taken away used on them. Another is the possibly that they will have to visit a Proctologist to have it removed from where it got placed after they "displayed" it in an attempt to defend themselves.

    When one draws a firearm in a SD situation they should be prepared to fire it. That does not mean that they HAVE to, just because they drew it, because the circumstance could change. What they may have thought to be a weapon was something else. The aggressor may choose to retreat or just "surrender". Drawing a firearm does not mean you HAVE to shoot but you darn well better be willing to do so. On the term "plan", it's really pretty much the same although a qualifier might be added, ie: "If I draw my weapon I plan on using it if the threat continues".
    Last edited by amlevin; 01-08-2011 at 11:13 AM. Reason: spell
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Carnation, Washington, USA
    Posts
    748
    [QUOTE=amlevin;1438136... "If I draw my weapon I plan on using it if the threat continues".[/QUOTE]

    Bingo!
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


    Talk to your cats about catnip - before it's too late.

  17. #17
    Regular Member USMC1911's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, Washington, USA
    Posts
    190
    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    I think there needs to be some differentiation here between willing to shoot versus planning. I think it was inferred above, the admonition about "don't draw unless you're WILLING to shoot" seems (at least to me) directed at those people who might draw without being mentally & spiritually prepared to actually fire, maybe thinking (consciously or otherwise), "if I just show the gun the bad guy will get scared & run away." There is a real danger there. We need a defensive display statute in Washington (or just follow the dadgum Constitution in the first place, I think "bearing arms" covers defensive display), and keep in mind that in the majority of self defense situations with a firearm, the gun is never fired, thereby making it a defensive display by default. Being WILLING to fire doesn't necessarily mean doing so, enough can change in those fractions of a second between clearing leather and getting your sight that pulling the trigger is no longer necessary.

    And as I always say, what is lawful under the current laws is not necessarily the same as what is RIGHT.
    +1
    I agree 110%, with several other statements above as well. What "I" perceive as a threat may very well be different then what "You" perceive as a threat. "You" may draw your weapon before "I" do, at the same threat, perceived by two separate people. The use of Deadly Force is specific, the preparation for that usage is not.
    I am a Sheep Dog, ... Wolves Beware !

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Wa, ,
    Posts
    2,769
    Overll the years that I have carried and worked with firearms, I have encountered a huge number of people, mostly elderly women, who say "I just want a gun so if someone breaks into my house, I can scare them away. I don't want to hurt anybody"
    My standard answer is "if you just want to scare them, buy a halloween mask, because they will take the gun away from you and kill you. If you are not willing to shoot in your defense, you are not qualified to have a firearm."

  19. #19
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338
    Good topic Aaron and good points, willing is way better than "plan".
    Plan could be construed as pre-meditated in some twisted brains.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  20. #20
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    South Whidbey, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,812
    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Good topic Aaron and good points, willing is way better than "plan".
    Plan could be construed as pre-meditated in some twisted brains.
    Didn't think "plan" was a good word either. "Intending" perhaps?
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,048
    I am often asked why I carry O.C. spray and a taser, if I have a gun. My response is always the same. I do not *wish* to kill anyone. If I were ever in a situation that could be deescalated without the use of a firearm, then it's a win situation. There's no winners in someone getting shot. Having blood on your hands is a huge burden. I am trained in Mixed Martial Arts and Krav Maga, and continue to train, but I never wish to engage in empty handed combat in a non-controlled environment. There is too much that can go wrong.

    There are also different levels of threats where drawing my firearm would be inappropriate, but spraying O.C. or firing my taser would not be. I use to work security at the Gateway Center property in Federal Way. One night, I found myself in a situation where I had to use my spray. The last movie of the theater had just ended, and everyone was leaving the property. All other businesses were closed, so I was conducting a property foot patrol. As I headed back to my office to file my log, I noticed a pick up truck in the parking lot with it's music blasting pretty loud. I walked over to the truck to see who was in it, and took notice of the plate number prior to talking to the men occupying the truck.

    As I approached the passenger side, I noticed the passenger was drinking a beer. I politely asked him if he could make his way off the property, as the businesses are now closed, and the owners have a "No Trespassing After Business Hours" policy. He started copping an attitude instantly. The driver was talking on his cell phone. I also informed him that he can't have any alcohol on the property, as no businesses have a liquor license, and no not allow it on the property. He then replied by throwing his beer at me and cursing some obscenities. I could have been an *******, but instead requested him to leave. His friend/driver got off his phone and apologized for his friend, and started his truck. The passenger then opened his door and proceeded to stagger out. He was clearly heavily intoxicated. I told him not to take any steps closer to me, while his driver was yelling at him to get back in the car.

    I took a few steps back, while telling him to get back in his car. My words meant nothing to him, and he wanted to fight. I wasn't going to engage in a fight with him because I did not know if he had a weapon. I decided to pull out my can of VEXOR O.C. Spray and sprayed him in the face. I unloaded the entire can on him. He instantly freaked out, and started flailing all over the place. His driver then got out of the car and basically threw his friend back inside, all while apologizing. They sped off.

    I then made a 911 call to report the incident. I informed the dispatcher that the man was approaching me in a violent manner, and I pepper sprayed him. All in all, I got a phone call from a police officer about 10 minutes later, saying he found the two and their truck about two blocks down the road. Apparently the driver had to pull over to tend to his friend because his face was burning so bad. The officer asked me if he brandished a weapon, and I said no. He informed me the man had a 6" hunting knife in his jacket pocket, and placed him under arrest. The officer came back and took my information, and said I may be subpoenaed as a witness if the man decides to take his case to trial.

    Turned out he took a plea bargain with the prosecutor.


    After reading that, what would you guys have done in that situation? I was armed with my firearm, but didn't feel the need to draw it.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    South Whidbey, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,812
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    I am often asked why I carry O.C. spray and a taser...
    You make some good points there, however...

    Carrying that much gear makes sense for a security guard, or of course a LEO, but for the average person? Plus all the other kit one "ought" to have? It gets into Batman territory real quick, is it reasonable to have to schlep 20 pounds of gear around all day, in the name of self defense, just to do some suburban shopping?
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338
    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Didn't think "plan" was a good word either. "Intending" perhaps?
    Intend makes me uneasy to. Still sounds like you are planning. If I have to pull my weapon and that was enough force to end the "situation" than I am done. But if I Intend or Plan to shoot and that mentality is set, it is more likely to happen.

    Maybe this is why we see so many LEO shoots? Perhaps they have this "planned" "intend" to shoot mentality. We have heard how many times they go on and on about "officer" safety.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    105
    Using deadly force is pointing the firearm. If you are pointing the firearm, you should be prepared to fire if necessary.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,048
    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    You make some good points there, however...

    Carrying that much gear makes sense for a security guard, or of course a LEO, but for the average person? Plus all the other kit one "ought" to have? It gets into Batman territory real quick, is it reasonable to have to schlep 20 pounds of gear around all day, in the name of self defense, just to do some suburban shopping?
    It's really not as much as it may seem. My can of O.C. is about one OZ and fits right in my left pant pocket. My Taser is a C2 - about 6 inches long, which goes in my right pant pocket. Really not as much as it might sound like in words.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •