OT- "Don't draw unless you plan to shoot"?

I am often asked why I carry O.C. spray and a taser, if I have a gun. My response is always the same. I do not *wish* to kill anyone. If I were ever in a situation that could be deescalated without the use of a firearm, then it's a win situation. There's no winners in someone getting shot. Having blood on your hands is a huge burden. I am trained in Mixed Martial Arts and Krav Maga, and continue to train, but I never wish to engage in empty handed combat in a non-controlled environment. There is too much that can go wrong.

There are also different levels of threats where drawing my firearm would be inappropriate, but spraying O.C. or firing my taser would not be. I use to work security at the Gateway Center property in Federal Way. One night, I found myself in a situation where I had to use my spray. The last movie of the theater had just ended, and everyone was leaving the property. All other businesses were closed, so I was conducting a property foot patrol. As I headed back to my office to file my log, I noticed a pick up truck in the parking lot with it's music blasting pretty loud. I walked over to the truck to see who was in it, and took notice of the plate number prior to talking to the men occupying the truck.

As I approached the passenger side, I noticed the passenger was drinking a beer. I politely asked him if he could make his way off the property, as the businesses are now closed, and the owners have a "No Trespassing After Business Hours" policy. He started copping an attitude instantly. The driver was talking on his cell phone. I also informed him that he can't have any alcohol on the property, as no businesses have a liquor license, and no not allow it on the property. He then replied by throwing his beer at me and cursing some obscenities. I could have been an *******, but instead requested him to leave. His friend/driver got off his phone and apologized for his friend, and started his truck. The passenger then opened his door and proceeded to stagger out. He was clearly heavily intoxicated. I told him not to take any steps closer to me, while his driver was yelling at him to get back in the car.

I took a few steps back, while telling him to get back in his car. My words meant nothing to him, and he wanted to fight. I wasn't going to engage in a fight with him because I did not know if he had a weapon. I decided to pull out my can of VEXOR O.C. Spray and sprayed him in the face. I unloaded the entire can on him. He instantly freaked out, and started flailing all over the place. His driver then got out of the car and basically threw his friend back inside, all while apologizing. They sped off.

I then made a 911 call to report the incident. I informed the dispatcher that the man was approaching me in a violent manner, and I pepper sprayed him. All in all, I got a phone call from a police officer about 10 minutes later, saying he found the two and their truck about two blocks down the road. Apparently the driver had to pull over to tend to his friend because his face was burning so bad. The officer asked me if he brandished a weapon, and I said no. He informed me the man had a 6" hunting knife in his jacket pocket, and placed him under arrest. The officer came back and took my information, and said I may be subpoenaed as a witness if the man decides to take his case to trial.

Turned out he took a plea bargain with the prosecutor.


After reading that, what would you guys have done in that situation? I was armed with my firearm, but didn't feel the need to draw it.

Aaron1124 said:

I am often asked why I carry O.C. spray and a taser...

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You make some good points there, however...

Carrying that much gear makes sense for a security guard, or of course a LEO, but for the average person? Plus all the other kit one "ought" to have? It gets into Batman territory real quick, is it reasonable to have to schlep 20 pounds of gear around all day, in the name of self defense, just to do some suburban shopping?

Metalhead47 said:

Didn't think "plan" was a good word either. "Intending" perhaps?

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Intend makes me uneasy to. Still sounds like you are planning. If I have to pull my weapon and that was enough force to end the "situation" than I am done. But if I Intend or Plan to shoot and that mentality is set, it is more likely to happen.

Maybe this is why we see so many LEO shoots? Perhaps they have this "planned" "intend" to shoot mentality. We have heard how many times they go on and on about "officer" safety.

Using deadly force is pointing the firearm. If you are pointing the firearm, you should be prepared to fire if necessary.

Metalhead47 said:

You make some good points there, however...

Carrying that much gear makes sense for a security guard, or of course a LEO, but for the average person? Plus all the other kit one "ought" to have? It gets into Batman territory real quick, is it reasonable to have to schlep 20 pounds of gear around all day, in the name of self defense, just to do some suburban shopping?

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It's really not as much as it may seem. My can of O.C. is about one OZ and fits right in my left pant pocket. My Taser is a C2 - about 6 inches long, which goes in my right pant pocket. Really not as much as it might sound like in words.

Aaron1124 said:

It's really not as much as it may seem. My can of O.C. is about one OZ and fits right in my left pant pocket. My Taser is a C2 - about 6 inches long, which goes in my right pant pocket. Really not as much as it might sound like in words.

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Right, now on top of that the other "must have" stuff. Me, I carry my primary gun, BUG, flashlight, leatherman, and now a kewl S&W knife.. plus wallet, keys, phone...

You see how it starts to add up?

Aaron1124 said:

After reading that, what would you guys have done in that situation? I was armed with my firearm, but didn't feel the need to draw it.

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Speaking as another "former" security professional, I can tell you from a mission priority point of view that you failed.

Legally, you were likely in your rights to do what you did as a citizen, but in point of fact, you didn't have to do any of it, and you placed yourself in far more danger then was necessary to execute your job. If I were your employer (and I have, in the past, employed security agents) I would have fired you after such a situation.

Here is why...

You forgot your priorities as an armed security agent...
1st) Protect the customers/public
2nd) Protect the property
3rd) Observe and report to assist with legal action.

On the 1st, there were none, it was an empty parking lot.

On the 2nd, they were not threatening property damage (yet)

On the 3rd, you did do this, but only after pushing the situation past what was necessary to prevent the first two priorities.

In my point of view, you were correct in your actions right up to the point that the drunk threw a beer can/bottle at you, after which you continued a conflict that served no purpose.

What you SHOULD have done at that point was then turned around, gotten to a safe location and called the authorities (focus on your third priority until one or both of the other two came into play) letting them know of the trespassers, their actions and updating the dispatcher of their status.

You used force when force wasn't required, thereby placing yourself in possible legal jeopardy, placing yourself in possible physical jeopardy with no gain, and placing your employers in a situation of possible civil liability for your actions.

Short of the drunk guy chasing after you as you tried to separate yourself from the scene, your use of force was a result of poor decision making. In the end, it may have turned out alright, but ultimately, you lost because you allowed ego to override the priorities of your employment.

I cant even begin to tell you how many ways that situation may have gone wrong for you, but I am sure you have reflected on your actions many times since. I only hope you learned from it.

I didn't work for a security sub-contractor. I worked specifically for the property engineer of the premises. I had specific priorities to follow. My manager was very specific about loitering after hours. Infact, he had gotten on a few of the other security officers for not investigating after-hours loiters. My job as security was a lot more hands on that the general duties of a sub contractor security officer.

I disagree that my use of force was unwarranted. The man was approaching me, and I had informed him not to take any further steps, yet, he continued to do so. Unbeknown to me, he also had a knife. I can tell you from a completely non biased stand point, that my ego had nothing to do with it. I am a very modest person. I had strict policies and procedures that I had to follow throughout the course of my employment. Trust me. The property engineer was VERY strict on his security officers taking proper action to after hour loiters. He reviewed the police report that I had filed, and had absolutely no quarrels with it. Infact, he thanked me for calling him at 1:00 AM to report the incident to him, for the reason that they were in violation of property policy of loitering after hours. (Considering a major part of my job description involved conducting a property patrol for any loitering patrons after the movie theater closed - as many mid-teens liked to hang out in the ally and smoke.)

Reading this story from my text may have resulted in a different interpretation than what I had actually experienced that night - and please note, my mission priorities were much different than that of a security sub contractor.

Metalhead47 said:

Right, now on top of that the other "must have" stuff. Me, I carry my primary gun, BUG, flashlight, leatherman, and now a kewl S&W knife.. plus wallet, keys, phone...

You see how it starts to add up?

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It certainly does. My daily carry gear is very routine. It also includes my phone, wallet and keys.

Aaron1124 said:

<SNIP>

Reading this story from my text may have resulted in a different interpretation than what I had actually experienced that night - and please note, my mission priorities were much different than that of a security sub contractor.

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Ok, I can understand that your employer may have had a different expectation of what your job encompassed, but why, if I might inquire, did they want such a heavy hand when it came to loitering when a call to 911 would accomplish the same thing with none of the liability to them, and none of the risk to you?

"Gentlemen, the businesses here are closed and that means the parking lots are closed to the public as-well, please leave the premises, and have a good night."

"&%@# Off!"

"I see, well, be sure to tell that to the sheriff when he shows up to trespass and escort you from the property."

Walk away to a safe location, observe and report. (end scene)

I just seems over the top to push a conflict, especially with a drunk person, when no people or property are at risk.

You were lucky.

FMCDH said:

Speaking as another "former" security professional, I can tell you from a mission priority point of view that you failed.

Legally, you were likely in your rights to do what you did as a citizen, but in point of fact, you didn't have to do any of it, and you placed yourself in far more danger then was necessary to execute your job. If I were your employer (and I have, in the past, employed security agents) I would have fired you after such a situation.

Here is why...

You forgot your priorities as an armed security agent...
1st) Protect the customers/public
2nd) Protect the property
3rd) Observe and report to assist with legal action.

On the 1st, there were none, it was an empty parking lot.

On the 2nd, they were not threatening property damage (yet)

On the 3rd, you did do this, but only after pushing the situation past what was necessary to prevent the first two priorities.

In my point of view, you were correct in your actions right up to the point that the drunk threw a beer can/bottle at you, after which you continued a conflict that served no purpose.

What you SHOULD have done at that point was then turned around, gotten to a safe location and called the authorities (focus on your third priority until one or both of the other two came into play) letting them know of the trespassers, their actions and updating the dispatcher of their status.

You used force when force wasn't required, thereby placing yourself in possible legal jeopardy, placing yourself in possible physical jeopardy with no gain, and placing your employers in a situation of possible civil liability for your actions.

Short of the drunk guy chasing after you as you tried to separate yourself from the scene, your use of force was a result of poor decision making. In the end, it may have turned out alright, but ultimately, you lost because you allowed ego to override the priorities of your employment.

I cant even begin to tell you how many ways that situation may have gone wrong for you, but I am sure you have reflected on your actions many times since. I only hope you learned from it.

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Would have, could have, should have...monday morning quarterback

FMCDH said:

Ok, I can understand that your employer may have had a different expectation of what your job encompassed, but why, if I might inquire, did they want such a heavy hand when it came to loitering when a call to 911 would accomplish the same thing with none of the liability to them, and none of the risk to you?

"Gentlemen, the businesses here are closed and that means the parking lots are closed to the public as-well, please leave the premises, and have a good night."

"&%@# Off!"

"I see, well, be sure to tell that to the sheriff when he shows up to trespass and escort you from the property."

Walk away to a safe location, observe and report. (end scene)

I just seems over the top to push a conflict, especially with a drunk person, when no people or property are at risk.

You were lucky.

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I certainly may have been lucky.

Prior to hiring the security officer before me, the property engineer (his title) had gone through Pierce County Security. Pierce County Security Officers were often found sleeping in their vehicle, and not performing the duties of their job. Plus, they were limited by Pierce County Security Policy as to what physical actions they could take. After a few incidents, the owners of the property discussed hiring "in house" security, so they could perform and carry out more duties.

Upon my employment, he immediately met with me at Blumenthals in Des Moines, and purchased over $350.00 worth of gear, including a uniform, jacket, hat, duty belt, O.C. Spray, flashlight, flashlight holster, O.C. Spray holster, and handcuffs. He also "highly encouraged" me to carry my firearm. (His only requirement was that I have a valid Washington CPL)

From my experience there, the place is very rough. They had countless after-hours break ins of the businesses. The Christmas before I started working there, someone had broken into Marlene's Market, and stole the actual safe. Vehicles would be broken in to late at night. People had been mugged. People had been shot and stabbed down at the Transit Center (just a hop, skip and a jump down the street). He did a full night's walkthrough with me in my first night, and told me to simply "observe" him. I'm not even exaggerating in the least when I said this, but at around 12:30, there was a kid, in his mid teens, sitting on a bench by one of the businesses. He asked him what he was doing, in which the teen replied "Waiting for my ride." My manager instructed him that he must wait off the property. That is how strict they are with their security officers being compliant on enforcing that policy.

Aaron1124 said:

I certainly may have been lucky.

Prior to hiring the security officer before me, the property engineer (his title) had gone through Pierce County Security. Pierce County Security Officers were often found sleeping in their vehicle, and not performing the duties of their job. Plus, they were limited by Pierce County Security Policy as to what physical actions they could take. After a few incidents, the owners of the property discussed hiring "in house" security, so they could perform and carry out more duties.

Upon my employment, he immediately met with me at Blumenthals in Des Moines, and purchased over $350.00 worth of gear, including a uniform, jacket, hat, duty belt, O.C. Spray, flashlight, flashlight holster, O.C. Spray holster, and handcuffs. He also "highly encouraged" me to carry my firearm. (His only requirement was that I have a valid Washington CPL)

From my experience there, the place is very rough. They had countless after-hours break ins of the businesses. The Christmas before I started working there, someone had broken into Marlene's Market, and stole the actual safe. Vehicles would be broken in to late at night. People had been mugged. People had been shot and stabbed down at the Transit Center (just a hop, skip and a jump down the street). He did a full night's walkthrough with me in my first night, and told me to simply "observe" him. I'm not even exaggerating in the least when I said this, but at around 12:30, there was a kid, in his mid teens, sitting on a bench by one of the businesses. He asked him what he was doing, in which the teen replied "Waiting for my ride." My manager instructed him that he must wait off the property. That is how strict they are with their security officers being compliant on enforcing that policy.

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I find it interesting that your "employer" would encourage you to carry your firearm as a Security Guard and not require any Certification. I realize that as you were a Security Guard working for solely for one employer you were exempt from State Law but I wonder if the employer's insurance underwriter knew of this "encouragement".

amlevin said:

I find it interesting that your "employer" would encourage you to carry your firearm as a Security Guard and not require any Certification. I realize that as you were a Security Guard working for solely for one employer you were exempt from State Law but I wonder if the employer's insurance underwriter knew of this "encouragement".

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I found it interesting as well. I also found it interesting that there was absolutely zero training in anything. The only "training" was the walk through on my first night. After that, he pretty much told me to have at it, and give him a call if I have any questions, and to use my best judgment.

IRRC working "in house" security as an armed guard, you can only carry a firearm owned by the employer.

Trigger Dr said:

IRRC working "in house" security as an armed guard, you can only carry a firearm owned by the employer.

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Nope. The law is silent on what a private, in house security officer may carry as a weapon. I believe what you're thinking of is a contracted security officer that may only use a firearm that is "leased" by his employer.

Rcw 18.170.020

Trigger Dr said:

Would have, could have, should have...monday morning quarterback

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He asked, so stuff it.

Aaron1124 said:

I certainly may have been lucky.

<SNIP>

From my experience there, the place is very rough. They had countless after-hours break ins of the businesses. The Christmas before I started working there, someone had broken into Marlene's Market, and stole the actual safe. Vehicles would be broken in to late at night. People had been mugged. People had been shot and stabbed down at the Transit Center (just a hop, skip and a jump down the street). He did a full night's walkthrough with me in my first night, and told me to simply "observe" him. I'm not even exaggerating in the least when I said this, but at around 12:30, there was a kid, in his mid teens, sitting on a bench by one of the businesses. He asked him what he was doing, in which the teen replied "Waiting for my ride." My manager instructed him that he must wait off the property. That is how strict they are with their security officers being compliant on enforcing that policy.

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Oy! Nightmare employer.

I was laid off on New Years Day of 2009 after "business dropped 30% since summer"