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OT- "Don't draw unless you plan to shoot"?

Aaron1124

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Jul 5, 2009
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Kent, Washington, USA
What are your thoughts on this phrase? Personally, I disagree. I believe "Don't draw unless you are WILLING to shoot."

There are circumstances that may warrant drawing your weapon, but not firing, if the threat is no longer there.
I will only shoot if there is immediate threat to life or limb, to myself, or someone else in my presence. If I am walking home from the store late at night, and a man comes at me with a weapon, (and is within close proximity) then that justifies shooting to stop the threat.

If I am walking home from the store late at night, and I am confronted by a group of (presumed) unarmed men who don't have the kindest of intentions, then I will draw my firearm if I feel it's necessary at that given time. If the threat ceases (as in the individuals flee) then there is no need to fire a weapon.

What are your thoughts on Draw VS Draw+Shoot?
 

USMC1911

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Joined
May 9, 2010
Messages
190
Location
Vancouver, Washington, USA
I have been trained that "IF" I perceive a threat, my weapon is in my hand. It is not going to do me any good holstered. It will still be on safe and I will be indexed, however it will be in my hand, next to my leg or at the low ready.
Semper Fi
 

afcarry

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Jul 22, 2010
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206
Location
Southeast of KC Mossouri
Firing your weapon may not be the only instance of the use of deadly force. In some municipalities, drawing your weapon is in itself using deadly force. In my opinion the need for the use of deadly force is inarguably the prerequisite for the use of deadly force. If you decide to carry a weapon daily, you need to be willing to use it in the ever-so highly unlikely occasion when your life depends on it. Should the thought of drawing your weapon cross your mind, then you damn sure better be ready to use it. This is where it gets complicated. For me there are five conditions that must exist before I draw my weapon. There has to be an immediate, otherwise unavoidable danger of death, or grave bodily harm to an innocent person. If all five of these conditions do not exist, or you have an unclear understanding of the situation, then you should not use deadly force. You have to be able to determine without a doubt the intentions of the individual initiating the confrontation. If he says "I'm going to kill you." thats a good sign. If he has a weapon, that alone may not constitute the use of deadly force. If they make an attempt to grab my weapon, I don't care what the law says, they were aggressively trying to disarm me and the only indication that they provided me with was that they were going to use deadly force on me with it. Just because they are physically assaulting you (slapping you in a metro in DC, or outside the movie theater in Virginia), that may not justify the use of deadly force. One thing that may, however, in that case is disparity of force. If a body builder is attacking me, then I may be justified because I have far less of a chance of surviving due to my physical limitations, so to balance the scale I use a tool, my 1911. If a mugger says he is going to attack me tomorrow at the grocery store, and then tomorrow, you see on the news that I shot a mugger in a grocery store, I am probably on my way to jail. I could have avoided that confrontation by not going to the grocery store. So in short: Before you draw your weapon, be sure you HAVE to use it. Its the only truly safe way.
 

BigDave

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That is one of the issues with these one liners, they are very open to interpretation.
Unfortunately many of these I believe come from instructors and repeated down the line with out the benefit of the instruction given.

It could also stem from past, present or even future action of some who are willing to draw a weapon to quick or in situations that do not rise to the level of deadly force.

When it comes to this statement I do not disagree with other assessments.

If one chooses to carry a firearm for self defense one must be willing when required to save a life to use it, otherwise leave it at home.
 

acmariner99

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Feb 12, 2010
Messages
655
Location
Renton, Wa
I think this question also depends on where you live. Some states punish law abiding citizens for merely owning a firearm, let alone carrying or actually using it for self-defense. In Arizona, if you have a reasonable suspicion that your safety is in danger by the actions of a third party you can initiate a "defensive display" as its called in Arizona State Law. You can inform of the presence of a firearm, expose or display the firearm, or place one's hand on the firearm as to indicate the capability to defend oneself:

A.R.S. §13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition
(SB 1243, enacted July 13, 2009, effective Sep. 30, 2009.)

A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

B. This section does not apply to a person who:

1. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force.

2. Uses a firearm during the commission of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706 or violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03.

C. This section does not require the defensive display of a firearm before the use of physical force or the threat of physical force by a person who is otherwise justified in the use or threatened use of physical force.

D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:

1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.

2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.

The state of Washington doesn't have such a defensive display law in place but, it does have a solid brandishing law.

RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

(a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

(b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

(e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments

Though if in a state like NY, NJ, or Maryland -- good luck.
 

afcarry

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
206
Location
Southeast of KC Mossouri
I like Arizona. Not many states at all have the defensive display. Whether its in a states statutes or not, I still personally believe that the defensive display definitely beats a full out draw to visually explain one's intentions to defend them self. Its a much safer manner.
 

Aaron1124

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Jul 5, 2009
Messages
2,044
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
Firing your weapon may not be the only instance of the use of deadly force. In some municipalities, drawing your weapon is in itself using deadly force. In my opinion the need for the use of deadly force is inarguably the prerequisite for the use of deadly force. If you decide to carry a weapon daily, you need to be willing to use it in the ever-so highly unlikely occasion when your life depends on it. Should the thought of drawing your weapon cross your mind, then you damn sure better be ready to use it. This is where it gets complicated. For me there are five conditions that must exist before I draw my weapon. There has to be an immediate, otherwise unavoidable danger of death, or grave bodily harm to an innocent person. If all five of these conditions do not exist, or you have an unclear understanding of the situation, then you should not use deadly force. You have to be able to determine without a doubt the intentions of the individual initiating the confrontation. If he says "I'm going to kill you." thats a good sign. If he has a weapon, that alone may not constitute the use of deadly force. If they make an attempt to grab my weapon, I don't care what the law says, they were aggressively trying to disarm me and the only indication that they provided me with was that they were going to use deadly force on me with it. Just because they are physically assaulting you (slapping you in a metro in DC, or outside the movie theater in Virginia), that may not justify the use of deadly force. One thing that may, however, in that case is disparity of force. If a body builder is attacking me, then I may be justified because I have far less of a chance of surviving due to my physical limitations, so to balance the scale I use a tool, my 1911. If a mugger says he is going to attack me tomorrow at the grocery store, and then tomorrow, you see on the news that I shot a mugger in a grocery store, I am probably on my way to jail. I could have avoided that confrontation by not going to the grocery store. So in short: Before you draw your weapon, be sure you HAVE to use it. Its the only truly safe way.

I agree with everything except your last scenario. You, by law, have every right to be at the grocery store. If a man told me he's going to break into my house tomorrow, I am not going to simply leave my house to avoid the altercation. I am going to stand my ground, which I have every right to do in Washington State. (I did notice you are not from WA, so you may be familiar with a different set of laws)
 

BigDave

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If a mugger says he is going to attack me tomorrow at the grocery store, and then tomorrow, you see on the news that I shot a mugger in a grocery store, I am probably on my way to jail. I could have avoided that confrontation by not going to the grocery store.

I agree with everything except your last scenario. You, by law, have every right to be at the grocery store. If a man told me he's going to break into my house tomorrow, I am not going to simply leave my house to avoid the altercation. I am going to stand my ground, which I have every right to do in Washington State. (I did notice you are not from WA, so you may be familiar with a different set of laws)

Since this is the Washington State Forum and Discussions Aaron reply is dead on, as citizens in the State has every right they can legally be and no threats of harm to one removes any right to self defense.

There maybe States where you have to retreat if possible but this is not one of them.
 

Ruby

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May 5, 2010
Messages
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Location
Renton, Washington, USA
I like Arizona. Not many states at all have the defensive display. Whether its in a states statutes or not, I still personally believe that the defensive display definitely beats a full out draw to visually explain one's intentions to defend them self. Its a much safer manner.

IIRC, Montana also has a law that says defensive display is legal. Of course, OC is all the "defensive display" most of us need!
 

ghosthunter

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Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
283
Location
MOUNT VERNON, Washington, USA
Another question is if you draw and the suspect flees. Would you call 911 and report it? I would.

We have touched on alot of this before on other threads. I am 60,I do not feel I have to take a beating since I could be killed. I might draw and I would shoot if I felt I was in danger. I also carry a pepper blaster 24 / 7. Each instance will be different.

(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

"unlawful force by another"

In my veiw force maybe pushing or slapping me around.
 

amzbrady

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Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
3,521
Location
Marysville, Washington, USA
What are your thoughts on this phrase? Personally, I disagree. I believe "Don't draw unless you are WILLING to shoot."

+1
I would hope that the mere presense of a firearm would thwart any further action on their part. I agree that hopefully if I do have to draw on someone, that it will deter them from forcing me to use any further action, and I wont have to deal with the after math of being forced to shoot someone. My goal as a firearm owner who carries, is to never have to draw my firearm, exept to target practice.
 

X-Beast

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Since this is the Washington state forum we should limit the responses to Washington state law and not reference laws in other states otherwise we (I, myself!) could get confused. I don't know what RCW-9.41 specifically says about this but as a matter of self preservation if I feel a threat is imminent I will draw and pray to God I don't have to fire. Once you squeeze the trigger it is a life altering event! I'm pretty sure it is lawful to draw without firing because Dave Workman has done it and didn't go to jail! If you draw in the face of imminent danger and the threat disipates or receeds then that is a better thing for all concerned than pulling the trigger IMO.
 

Metalhead47

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South Whidbey, Washington, USA
WILLING vs PLANNING

I think there needs to be some differentiation here between willing to shoot versus planning. I think it was inferred above, the admonition about "don't draw unless you're WILLING to shoot" seems (at least to me) directed at those people who might draw without being mentally & spiritually prepared to actually fire, maybe thinking (consciously or otherwise), "if I just show the gun the bad guy will get scared & run away." There is a real danger there. We need a defensive display statute in Washington (or just follow the dadgum Constitution in the first place, I think "bearing arms" covers defensive display), and keep in mind that in the majority of self defense situations with a firearm, the gun is never fired, thereby making it a defensive display by default. Being WILLING to fire doesn't necessarily mean doing so, enough can change in those fractions of a second between clearing leather and getting your sight that pulling the trigger is no longer necessary.

And as I always say, what is lawful under the current laws is not necessarily the same as what is RIGHT.:p
 

amlevin

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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
What are your thoughts on this phrase? Personally, I disagree. I believe "Don't draw unless you are WILLING to shoot."

I would carry this thought a little further. Don't even carry a firearm if you are not willing to shoot and possibly take a life in self defense.

There are some that feel the mere presence of a firearm on their person is enough to guarantee their safety. If they are ever in trouble they will only need to show it. But deep down inside they are against taking human life and are not sure that they can actually shoot someone. This reservation will only insure one of a couple of outcomes. One is that they will have the gun taken away used on them. Another is the possibly that they will have to visit a Proctologist to have it removed from where it got placed after they "displayed" it in an attempt to defend themselves.

When one draws a firearm in a SD situation they should be prepared to fire it. That does not mean that they HAVE to, just because they drew it, because the circumstance could change. What they may have thought to be a weapon was something else. The aggressor may choose to retreat or just "surrender". Drawing a firearm does not mean you HAVE to shoot but you darn well better be willing to do so. On the term "plan", it's really pretty much the same although a qualifier might be added, ie: "If I draw my weapon I plan on using it if the threat continues".
 
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USMC1911

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May 9, 2010
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Vancouver, Washington, USA
I think there needs to be some differentiation here between willing to shoot versus planning. I think it was inferred above, the admonition about "don't draw unless you're WILLING to shoot" seems (at least to me) directed at those people who might draw without being mentally & spiritually prepared to actually fire, maybe thinking (consciously or otherwise), "if I just show the gun the bad guy will get scared & run away." There is a real danger there. We need a defensive display statute in Washington (or just follow the dadgum Constitution in the first place, I think "bearing arms" covers defensive display), and keep in mind that in the majority of self defense situations with a firearm, the gun is never fired, thereby making it a defensive display by default. Being WILLING to fire doesn't necessarily mean doing so, enough can change in those fractions of a second between clearing leather and getting your sight that pulling the trigger is no longer necessary.

And as I always say, what is lawful under the current laws is not necessarily the same as what is RIGHT.:p

+1
I agree 110%, with several other statements above as well. What "I" perceive as a threat may very well be different then what "You" perceive as a threat. "You" may draw your weapon before "I" do, at the same threat, perceived by two separate people. The use of Deadly Force is specific, the preparation for that usage is not.
 

Trigger Dr

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Overll the years that I have carried and worked with firearms, I have encountered a huge number of people, mostly elderly women, who say "I just want a gun so if someone breaks into my house, I can scare them away. I don't want to hurt anybody"
My standard answer is "if you just want to scare them, buy a halloween mask, because they will take the gun away from you and kill you. If you are not willing to shoot in your defense, you are not qualified to have a firearm."
 
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