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Thread: And it begins, Again!

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    And it begins, Again!

    With the shooting of a US Congresswoman in Tucson, the politicians are now scrambling to place blame.

    Naturally the "Left" is blaming the "R's" and the Republicans are attempting to place the blame where it belongs, on the actions of a deranged "pothead" loner.

    Even Sarah Palin is now in the "Crosshairs".

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47322.html
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    “We live in a world of violent images … the phrase ‘don’t retreat, reload’ — putting crosshairs on congressional districts as targets … they invite the unstable,” Durbin told Candy Crowley on CNN’s “State of the Union.”

    Mr Durbin speaks for himself when he says that I conclude.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    ((Asked if Arizona’s more lenient standards may need to be strengthened, Tea Party favorite Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) said, “No, I don’t think so.”

    He added: “Weapons don’t kill people; it’s the individual who kills people.”))

    Yea, what additional law or punishment exactly do people think could have prevented this? You think a deranged gunman who was willing to commit cold blooded murder would have cared about committing multiple misdemeanors and lesser felonies in the course of doing so? Please...

    Even a full out ban on carry or ownership of guns in America would not have kept this guy from hurting people, he likely would have simply turned to even MORE destructive methods. He was obviously willing to die to make his point.

    The only thing this needs to be taken as, is a que to our collective leaders to ramp up assistance for the mentally ill who have been revolving around in the criminal justice system for years and decades.

    "You cant prevent insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws."
    ~Penn & Teller

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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    SNIP The only thing this needs to be taken as, is a que to our collective leaders to ramp up assistance for the mentally ill who have been revolving around in the criminal justice system for years and decades.

    "You cant prevent insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws."
    ~Penn & Teller
    The bold-red above might be part of the problem.

    By identifying government officials as our "leaders" we are essentially saying individuals have no existence outside of the State. It is the equivalent of saying society is the state, and the state is society. This is a very pernicious concept. I reject this idea.

    When I vote for president, I am voting only for the leader of the executive branch of the fedgov. Not the leader of the nation. When I vote for my state delegate or congressman, I am voting a representative, not a leader.

    Also, such a "leaders" concept is incompatible with the idea that the government is our servant.

    To say the state is society/society is the state is to play right into the hands of big government who want to lead and mold society with uncountable laws and regulations. And, plays right into the hands of the those members of society who are arrogant enough to believe they know what is right for everybody else and desire 1) the regulation, and 2) to be the regulators.

    I will look to history, philosophers, etc. (those who have more information or are wiser than I) for "leadership" (in the form of ideas and analysis) in forming my opinions. Beyond that, the only leader I have is my supervisor at work.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-09-2011 at 05:07 PM.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    The bold-red above might be part of the problem.

    By identifying government officials as our "leaders" we are essentially saying individuals have no existence outside of the State. It is the equivalent of saying society is the state, and the state is society. This is a very pernicious concept. I reject this idea.

    When I vote for president, I am voting only for the leader of the executive branch of the fedgov. Not the leader of the nation. When I vote for my state delegate or congressman, I am voting a representative, not a leader.

    Also, such a "leaders" concept is incompatible with the idea that the government is our servant.

    To say the state is society/society is the state is to play right into the hands of big government who want to lead and mold society with uncountable laws and regulations. And, plays right into the hands of the those members of society who are arrogant enough to believe they know what is right for everybody else and desire 1) the regulation, and 2) to be the regulators.

    I will look to history, philosophers, etc. (those who have more information or are wiser than I) for "leadership" (in the form of ideas and analysis) in forming my opinions. Beyond that, the only leader I have is my supervisor at work.
    I was looking at it from a legislative point of view, in which they would need to pass the laws to make such assistance possible on a local level.

    "Leaders" was also a term used to be a bit facetious.

    But, I understand your reply.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post

    Yea, what additional law or punishment exactly do people think could have prevented this?
    No additional law or punishment would help or be needed if one of the laws already on the books was enforced differently. In reading several reports on the individual, it appears that he has run afoul of the "law" at least twice previously. He was able to avoid a record both times by going through a "diversion program". Since both offenses occured within two years of each other, we can see how effective "diversion" was in this case. All his school classmates described him variously as "a pothead", a loner, a troubled individual. To me, it gives me no surprise that he found his way to the "headlines".

    If he was not offered the diversion program and instead was tried and convicted on both of his earlier crimes he might not have been able to purchase the firearm to begin with. "Diversion" shouldn't be offered on the front end to avoid a record. If they want a clean record it should be something they should be able to earn by showing they know how to live within society's rules.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Amlevin,

    Do you have any links that state the types of incidents and the time-frame?

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    Amlevin,

    Do you have any links that state the types of incidents and the time-frame?
    From the Everett Herald this AM:

    In October 2007, Loughner was cited in Pima County for possession of drug paraphernalia, which was dismissed after he completed a diversion program, according to online records.

    A year later he was charged with an unknown "local charge" in Marana near Tucson. That charge was also dismissed following the completion of a diversion program in March 2009, the Daily Star reported.
    http://heraldnet.com/article/20110109/NEWS02/110109835
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Thx!

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    I think it is unfortunate that this happened, esp for the little girl. I do however think if more people put their rights to use, and carried, this could have been limited to a possible 2 dead instead of 6 and no need for a trial for the shooter.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    I think it is unfortunate that this happened, esp for the little girl. I do however think if more people put their rights to use, and carried, this could have been limited to a possible 2 dead instead of 6 and no need for a trial for the shooter.
    Active shooters seldom last long in Israel - wonder why that is?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 01-09-2011 at 11:00 PM. Reason: fix
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Glock 19 a legal buy...

    STORY

    Mass-shooting suspect Jared Lee Loughner bought the gun used in Saturday’s killings on Nov. 30 at the Sportsman’s Warehouse, 3945 W. Costco Drive, the Associated Press and Washington Post report.
    FBI Director Robert Mueller confirmed the timing of the purchase today and said it was a Glock model 19 9mm semi-automatic handgun.
    The handgun purchase was legal, authorities said, and Loughner was not a prohibited possessor.
    Loughner emptied one magazine during the shootings that killed six people and injured another 13, including U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, his target, authorities said. A woman at the scene prevented Loughner from loading a second magazine, said Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik.
    Live Free or Die!

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    The lax carry laws are there for a reason. People should have been making use of them.

    Also, if this guy was a pothead, wouldn't he be considered a habitual user or an addict to illicit drugs? If so, doesn't that disqualify him from legal gun ownership at the federal level?

    If that's the case, it was NOT a legal buy.
    Quote Originally Posted by SayWhat View Post

    Shooters before hooters.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .45ACPaddy View Post
    The lax carry laws are there for a reason. People should have been making use of them.

    Also, if this guy was a pothead, wouldn't he be considered a habitual user or an addict to illicit drugs? If so, doesn't that disqualify him from legal gun ownership at the federal level?

    If that's the case, it was NOT a legal buy.
    The fact remains that he escaped having this on his record because someone decided he'd be a good candidate for a "Diversion Program". Twice in less than two years to be exact. Too bad those that made this decision can't be held liable for the outcome.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    "Loughner emptied one magazine during the shootings that killed six people and injured another 13"

    So does this mean that he purchased another magazine that would hold more rounds? The math doesn't add up. The glock 19 comes with 15 round clips, but by their count there was 19 either killed or injured. If he used the standard mag then he was a really good shot and not only didn't miss, but hit two people with at least three of his shots.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    "Loughner emptied one magazine during the shootings that killed six people and injured another 13"

    So does this mean that he purchased another magazine that would hold more rounds? The math doesn't add up. The glock 19 comes with 15 round clips, but by their count there was 19 either killed or injured. If he used the standard mag then he was a really good shot and not only didn't miss, but hit two people with at least three of his shots.
    According to a news account, someone seized the second magazine before he could reload. It was supposed to be a 33 round mag. Didn't read what the first mag contained. Could have been the same. Just because the factory includes a mag with 15 round capacity doesn't mean that's what the shooter was carrying. $50-$70 more buys a mag more suited to an SMG.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    I traveled to Arizona in 2010...

    I flew to Phoenix in October 2010, and even brought my own G19 with me so that I could join my buddy (a former Maricopa Co SO deputy) for a day of shooting at Scottsdale Gun Club while I was down there, as well as to carry. I'm on the "R" side of the political debate on most issues, but MY Glock 19 was able to not shoot anything but paper while I was down there. Hmmmm....

    The G19 does come standard with two 15rd mags from the factory, however, 17rd G17 mags, or even that same G17 mag with a +2 floorplate will work in the G19, getting the capacity to as many as 19+1 with a "pistol"-size mag. The G18 mag is a 31rd mag with that same +2 floorplate on it, so it brings capacity to 33+1, and will also work in the G19. It is also possible (or likely) that with that many people so densly grouped together, that a single round could easily have cause more than one injury.

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    I just think it's odd that a perp wishing for suicide by cop actually paid an extra $100 or so for two G18 mags and the news story failed to mention it. I have one of those in my lunchbox actually.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    What I'd like to know is, where was this congresswoman's security detail? Aren't they all s'posed to have one in this age of heightened security? How the heck does an inexperienced shooter with a handgun HIT 19 people in a situation that's usually crawling with cops or security.

    Oh, and dontcha love it how quick the left is to jump all over the right when some right-ish lunatic like this goes off, but when a bunch of left wing loonies ('member the WTO downtown?) go off, they're silent?
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G20-IWB24/7 View Post
    I flew to Phoenix in October 2010, and even brought my own G19 with me so that I could join my buddy (a former Maricopa Co SO deputy) for a day of shooting at Scottsdale Gun Club while I was down there, as well as to carry. I'm on the "R" side of the political debate on most issues, but MY Glock 19 was able to not shoot anything but paper while I was down there. Hmmmm....

    The G19 does come standard with two 15rd mags from the factory, however, 17rd G17 mags, or even that same G17 mag with a +2 floorplate will work in the G19, getting the capacity to as many as 19+1 with a "pistol"-size mag. The G18 mag is a 31rd mag with that same +2 floorplate on it, so it brings capacity to 33+1, and will also work in the G19. It is also possible (or likely) that with that many people so densly grouped together, that a single round could easily have cause more than one injury.
    More news accounts on the radio today referred to an "extended magazine".
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    Mayor Daley: Arizona Shooting Should Result In 'Common Sense Gun Laws'



    Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley has been a very vocal supporter of strict gun control over the years. Handguns were outright banned in Chicago from 1982 until the U.S. Supreme Court struck down the ban last year, and on Monday Daley blamed access to guns in this country for the tragic shooting rampage in Arizona that left six dead and U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords critically wounded.

    "I want to extend my condolences and prayers to those who have lost their loved ones and to those that are suffering today," Daley said at McCormick Place Monday, according to the Chicago Tribune. "This is a national tragedy...But unfortunately, events like this happen far too often in America. We have to come back with some common sense gun laws."

    The suspect in the Arizona shootings, Jared Loughner, allegedly used a 33-round magazine clip in his Glock-19 pistol--allowing him to shoot 20 people before reloading. (Read more about Loughner's weapon here.)

    "...No one should have that type of weapon, that kind of magazine on the streets of America," Daley said. He added that one could try to understand why people kill other people, but the main problem is access to guns in this country.
    Oh How I enjoy reading Daley's "common sense" comments...

  22. #22
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Daley the Dumbass
    "...No one should have that type of weapon, that kind of magazine on the streets of America," Daley said. He added that one could try to understand why people kill other people, but the main problem is access to guns in this country.
    Wait... so the problem isn't actually that people are killing people, it's that they're doing it with guns?
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Wait... so the problem isn't actually that people are killing people, it's that they're doing it with guns?
    Apparently he would prefer suicide bombers over suicide gunners? That kind of statement coming from Daley, with his one sided view of reality doesn't surprise me.
    Last edited by FMCDH; 01-10-2011 at 09:10 PM. Reason: spelling error

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    Apparently he would prefer suicide bombers over suicide gunners? That kind of statement coming from Daley, with his one sided view of reality doesn't surprise me.
    Certainly not, that's absolutely ridiculous! He clearly would prefer that people bludgeoned each other to death.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  25. #25
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Certainly not, that's absolutely ridiculous! He clearly would prefer that people bludgeoned each other to death.
    Well, one things for sure...he sure doesn't mind guns as long as they are protecting him or in the hands of his mafia friends.

    He likes guns enough to make sure anyone who gave him enough money got a nice signed note.

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