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And it begins, Again!

Grapeshot

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“We live in a world of violent images … the phrase ‘don’t retreat, reload’ — putting crosshairs on congressional districts as targets … they invite the unstable,” Durbin told Candy Crowley on CNN’s “State of the Union.”

Mr Durbin speaks for himself when he says that I conclude. :p
 

FMCDH

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((Asked if Arizona’s more lenient standards may need to be strengthened, Tea Party favorite Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) said, “No, I don’t think so.”

He added: “Weapons don’t kill people; it’s the individual who kills people.”))

Yea, what additional law or punishment exactly do people think could have prevented this? You think a deranged gunman who was willing to commit cold blooded murder would have cared about committing multiple misdemeanors and lesser felonies in the course of doing so? Please... :rolleyes:

Even a full out ban on carry or ownership of guns in America would not have kept this guy from hurting people, he likely would have simply turned to even MORE destructive methods. He was obviously willing to die to make his point.

The only thing this needs to be taken as, is a que to our collective leaders to ramp up assistance for the mentally ill who have been revolving around in the criminal justice system for years and decades.

"You cant prevent insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws."
~Penn & Teller
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP The only thing this needs to be taken as, is a que to our collective leaders to ramp up assistance for the mentally ill who have been revolving around in the criminal justice system for years and decades.

"You cant prevent insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws."
~Penn & Teller

The bold-red above might be part of the problem.

By identifying government officials as our "leaders" we are essentially saying individuals have no existence outside of the State. It is the equivalent of saying society is the state, and the state is society. This is a very pernicious concept. I reject this idea.

When I vote for president, I am voting only for the leader of the executive branch of the fedgov. Not the leader of the nation. When I vote for my state delegate or congressman, I am voting a representative, not a leader.

Also, such a "leaders" concept is incompatible with the idea that the government is our servant.

To say the state is society/society is the state is to play right into the hands of big government who want to lead and mold society with uncountable laws and regulations. And, plays right into the hands of the those members of society who are arrogant enough to believe they know what is right for everybody else and desire 1) the regulation, and 2) to be the regulators.

I will look to history, philosophers, etc. (those who have more information or are wiser than I) for "leadership" (in the form of ideas and analysis) in forming my opinions. Beyond that, the only leader I have is my supervisor at work.
 
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FMCDH

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The bold-red above might be part of the problem.

By identifying government officials as our "leaders" we are essentially saying individuals have no existence outside of the State. It is the equivalent of saying society is the state, and the state is society. This is a very pernicious concept. I reject this idea.

When I vote for president, I am voting only for the leader of the executive branch of the fedgov. Not the leader of the nation. When I vote for my state delegate or congressman, I am voting a representative, not a leader.

Also, such a "leaders" concept is incompatible with the idea that the government is our servant.

To say the state is society/society is the state is to play right into the hands of big government who want to lead and mold society with uncountable laws and regulations. And, plays right into the hands of the those members of society who are arrogant enough to believe they know what is right for everybody else and desire 1) the regulation, and 2) to be the regulators.

I will look to history, philosophers, etc. (those who have more information or are wiser than I) for "leadership" (in the form of ideas and analysis) in forming my opinions. Beyond that, the only leader I have is my supervisor at work.

I was looking at it from a legislative point of view, in which they would need to pass the laws to make such assistance possible on a local level.

"Leaders" was also a term used to be a bit facetious. :rolleyes:

But, I understand your reply.
 

amlevin

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Yea, what additional law or punishment exactly do people think could have prevented this?

No additional law or punishment would help or be needed if one of the laws already on the books was enforced differently. In reading several reports on the individual, it appears that he has run afoul of the "law" at least twice previously. He was able to avoid a record both times by going through a "diversion program". Since both offenses occured within two years of each other, we can see how effective "diversion" was in this case. All his school classmates described him variously as "a pothead", a loner, a troubled individual. To me, it gives me no surprise that he found his way to the "headlines".

If he was not offered the diversion program and instead was tried and convicted on both of his earlier crimes he might not have been able to purchase the firearm to begin with. "Diversion" shouldn't be offered on the front end to avoid a record. If they want a clean record it should be something they should be able to earn by showing they know how to live within society's rules.
 

amlevin

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Amlevin,

Do you have any links that state the types of incidents and the time-frame?

From the Everett Herald this AM:

In October 2007, Loughner was cited in Pima County for possession of drug paraphernalia, which was dismissed after he completed a diversion program, according to online records.

A year later he was charged with an unknown "local charge" in Marana near Tucson. That charge was also dismissed following the completion of a diversion program in March 2009, the Daily Star reported.

http://heraldnet.com/article/20110109/NEWS02/110109835
 

amzbrady

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Mar 1, 2009
Messages
3,521
Location
Marysville, Washington, USA
I think it is unfortunate that this happened, esp for the little girl. I do however think if more people put their rights to use, and carried, this could have been limited to a possible 2 dead instead of 6 and no need for a trial for the shooter.
 

Grapeshot

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I think it is unfortunate that this happened, esp for the little girl. I do however think if more people put their rights to use, and carried, this could have been limited to a possible 2 dead instead of 6 and no need for a trial for the shooter.

Active shooters seldom last long in Israel - wonder why that is? :confused:
 
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gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
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Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
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Federal Way, Washington, USA
Glock 19 a legal buy...

STORY

Mass-shooting suspect Jared Lee Loughner bought the gun used in Saturday’s killings on Nov. 30 at the Sportsman’s Warehouse, 3945 W. Costco Drive, the Associated Press and Washington Post report.
FBI Director Robert Mueller confirmed the timing of the purchase today and said it was a Glock model 19 9mm semi-automatic handgun.
The handgun purchase was legal, authorities said, and Loughner was not a prohibited possessor.
Loughner emptied one magazine during the shootings that killed six people and injured another 13, including U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, his target, authorities said. A woman at the scene prevented Loughner from loading a second magazine, said Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik.
 

.45ACPaddy

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Lakewood, WA
The lax carry laws are there for a reason. People should have been making use of them.

Also, if this guy was a pothead, wouldn't he be considered a habitual user or an addict to illicit drugs? If so, doesn't that disqualify him from legal gun ownership at the federal level?

If that's the case, it was NOT a legal buy.
 

amlevin

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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
The lax carry laws are there for a reason. People should have been making use of them.

Also, if this guy was a pothead, wouldn't he be considered a habitual user or an addict to illicit drugs? If so, doesn't that disqualify him from legal gun ownership at the federal level?

If that's the case, it was NOT a legal buy.

The fact remains that he escaped having this on his record because someone decided he'd be a good candidate for a "Diversion Program". Twice in less than two years to be exact. Too bad those that made this decision can't be held liable for the outcome.
 

tombrewster421

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Roy, WA
"Loughner emptied one magazine during the shootings that killed six people and injured another 13"

So does this mean that he purchased another magazine that would hold more rounds? The math doesn't add up. The glock 19 comes with 15 round clips, but by their count there was 19 either killed or injured. If he used the standard mag then he was a really good shot and not only didn't miss, but hit two people with at least three of his shots.
 

amlevin

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"Loughner emptied one magazine during the shootings that killed six people and injured another 13"

So does this mean that he purchased another magazine that would hold more rounds? The math doesn't add up. The glock 19 comes with 15 round clips, but by their count there was 19 either killed or injured. If he used the standard mag then he was a really good shot and not only didn't miss, but hit two people with at least three of his shots.

According to a news account, someone seized the second magazine before he could reload. It was supposed to be a 33 round mag. Didn't read what the first mag contained. Could have been the same. Just because the factory includes a mag with 15 round capacity doesn't mean that's what the shooter was carrying. $50-$70 more buys a mag more suited to an SMG.
 

G20-IWB24/7

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Tacoma, WA, ,
I traveled to Arizona in 2010...

I flew to Phoenix in October 2010, and even brought my own G19 with me so that I could join my buddy (a former Maricopa Co SO deputy) for a day of shooting at Scottsdale Gun Club while I was down there, as well as to carry. I'm on the "R" side of the political debate on most issues, but MY Glock 19 was able to not shoot anything but paper while I was down there. Hmmmm....

The G19 does come standard with two 15rd mags from the factory, however, 17rd G17 mags, or even that same G17 mag with a +2 floorplate will work in the G19, getting the capacity to as many as 19+1 with a "pistol"-size mag. The G18 mag is a 31rd mag with that same +2 floorplate on it, so it brings capacity to 33+1, and will also work in the G19. It is also possible (or likely) that with that many people so densly grouped together, that a single round could easily have cause more than one injury.
 

tombrewster421

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May 25, 2010
Messages
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Roy, WA
I just think it's odd that a perp wishing for suicide by cop actually paid an extra $100 or so for two G18 mags and the news story failed to mention it. I have one of those in my lunchbox actually.
 

Metalhead47

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
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South Whidbey, Washington, USA
What I'd like to know is, where was this congresswoman's security detail? Aren't they all s'posed to have one in this age of heightened security? How the heck does an inexperienced shooter with a handgun HIT 19 people in a situation that's usually crawling with cops or security.

Oh, and dontcha love it how quick the left is to jump all over the right when some right-ish lunatic like this goes off, but when a bunch of left wing loonies ('member the WTO downtown?) go off, they're silent?
 

amlevin

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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
I flew to Phoenix in October 2010, and even brought my own G19 with me so that I could join my buddy (a former Maricopa Co SO deputy) for a day of shooting at Scottsdale Gun Club while I was down there, as well as to carry. I'm on the "R" side of the political debate on most issues, but MY Glock 19 was able to not shoot anything but paper while I was down there. Hmmmm....

The G19 does come standard with two 15rd mags from the factory, however, 17rd G17 mags, or even that same G17 mag with a +2 floorplate will work in the G19, getting the capacity to as many as 19+1 with a "pistol"-size mag. The G18 mag is a 31rd mag with that same +2 floorplate on it, so it brings capacity to 33+1, and will also work in the G19. It is also possible (or likely) that with that many people so densly grouped together, that a single round could easily have cause more than one injury.

More news accounts on the radio today referred to an "extended magazine".
 
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