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Thread: Getting a Purchase Permit under 21 help

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    Getting a Purchase Permit under 21 help

    I am having issues getting a permit since im 19. I know i can't buy from a federal dealer but i can from a individual. When i went to a local sheriff station they said no without thinking twice. Guilford county has on their website that you have to be 21 to recieve a permit. Is this a county law? Or do i have to convince someone that it is legal for me to recieve a permit as long as i don't buy from a dealer. The main reason is to buy a gun from my dad and I want the gun in my name. Any other options? If he gives it to me as a "gift" will it be under my name?

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Take your father in with you, and have him ask the Sheriff to issue you a PPP, for a private sale. State or Federal law does not require you to be 21 to purchase a handgun in a private sale.

    Many Sheriffs won't issue PPPs to people under 21 as a matter of course. IF you take the relative who is selling the gun to you (father, uncle, etc), they will often issue you the permit. It's because they are afraid you will use the PPP to purchase the gun from some random person--if it's a family member selling you the gun, often a Sheriff will feel more comfortable issuing the permit...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcGlock19 View Post
    I am having issues getting a permit since im 19. I know i can't buy from a federal dealer but i can from a individual. When i went to a local sheriff station they said no without thinking twice. Guilford county has on their website that you have to be 21 to recieve a permit. Is this a county law? Or do i have to convince someone that it is legal for me to recieve a permit as long as i don't buy from a dealer. The main reason is to buy a gun from my dad and I want the gun in my name. Any other options? If he gives it to me as a "gift" will it be under my name?
    Since there is no state registration of firearms, the firearm will not be "in your name" even with a purchase permit.
    Unfortunately, since the sheriff has complete control of issuing permits, any excuse can be used for denying a permit. One of the reasons GRNC introduced legislation to do away with the permit system.

    Borrow the firearm until you can get a permit.
    Last edited by cricketdad; 01-10-2011 at 05:24 AM.

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    Regular Member CDT COX's Avatar
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    Good Luck to you

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    Will there be any issues if i have to use the gun to stop a threat? Like will my dad get in trouble or have a chance of being sued for letting me borrow it compared to me purchasing it?

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcGlock19 View Post
    Will there be any issues if i have to use the gun to stop a threat? Like will my dad get in trouble or have a chance of being sued for letting me borrow it compared to me purchasing it?
    YES. There will ALWAYS be "issues" if you use lethal force to stop a threat.

    Even if you are 45 years old, bought the gun from an FFL, have a Concealed Handgun Permit, and have never had so much as a traffic ticket--there WILL be "issues"...

    Using lethal force is NEVER a "cut and dry" situation with the law. There WILL be an investigation. You WILL be arrested. Your gun WILL be confiscated. You WILL have to hire an attorney, and it WILL most likely be expensive.

    But if it is TOTALLY justified, you will probably be free in a matter of hours, and you will eventually get your gun back.

    However, in NC, the BG's family CAN sue you for civil damages, and that can get REALLY expensive, because even if they lose the suit, you're STILL going to have to hire a lawyer...

    So, essentially, it doesn't matter WHO the gun belongs to, as long as you can 1) legally possess a firearm, 2) were carrying it in a legal manner, 3) used it in a lawful manner, and 4) you did NOT start the situation with your own actions, or were in any way in the wrong.

    Best case scenario: you get cuffed, your gun is seized, and you take a ride downtown to give a statement, and are then released while they investigate, and eventually clear you of any wrongdoing.

    If you have to use your firearm in a self defense situation, who the gun belongs to is going to be the LEAST of your worries (if the gun is legit, and you can legally possess it)...

    Am I trying to scare you with all this? YOU BET...

    Why all the fear and doom? Because carrying a gun is SERIOUS BUSINESS, and you'd better be DAMN SURE you are mature enough, responsible, level-headed, and educated as to your rights and the law BEFORE you carry.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 01-10-2011 at 09:57 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Thanks. Trust me I was raised around guns and understand the responsibility carrying requires. I just tell myself that firing the gun better be worth spending my life in jail or being in debt the rest of my life. I just like doing my research. Thanks for the feed back!

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    Under North Carolina law, it is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation to sell, give away, transfer, purchase, or receive, at any place in the state, any pistol, unless the purchaser or receiver has first obtained a license or permit to receive such a pistol by the sheriff of the county where the purchaser or receiver resides, or the purchaser or receiver possesses a valid North Carolina-issued concealed carry permit.


    You and your dad ever vacation in Virginia? Have him make out a receipt for the gift, sign it, and have the receipt notarized by the Virginia notary public. Then you have documentation that the transaction occurred out of the state of North Carolina.
    Last edited by NCjones; 01-17-2011 at 12:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Nice idea except the recipient would violate 18 USC 922 (a)(3) when they brought the gun back to North Carolina:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/us...2----000-.html
    I stand corrected. Guess big brother has you by the balls no matter which way you turn.
    At least federal prison has more amenities than state prison. LOL
    Last edited by NCjones; 01-17-2011 at 01:23 AM.

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    Well, the Goldsboro News Argus says it is so, so it must be!
    NORTH CAROLINA LAW requires the buyer of a handgun to be 21 years old (even if the gun is not bought from a dealer).
    I wonder...if they could cite the statute?

    Last edited by NCjones; 01-17-2011 at 05:16 AM.

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    Call AG's office, have them call the sheriff. Get permit. Buy pistol.

    I was 19 when I got my permit and bought my pistol.

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    Regular Member wabbit's Avatar
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    directly from the source...

    ATF flatly states:...the minimum age is 21 [18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1)]"

    to go outof state the ATF states: State Residency Requirements
    Generally, you (ffl) MAY NOT sell or transfer a firearm to a non-licensee who resides outside the State in which your licensed premises is located. A person’s State of residence is the State in which the person resides and the person is present with the intent of making a home in that State.
    (ref www.atf.gov/publications)

    NC statuates flatly state: 14-269.7. Prohibitions on handguns for
    minors
    (b) This section does not apply:
    (2) To a minor who possesses a handgun for
    educational or recreational purposes while the
    minor is supervised by an adult who is present.
    (3) To an emancipated minor who possesses
    such handgun inside his or her residence.
    (4) To a minor who possesses a handgun
    while hunting or trapping outside the limits of an
    incorporated municipality if he has on his person
    written permission from a parent, guardian, or
    other person standing in loco parentis.


    (c) The following definitions apply in this
    section:
    (2) Minor. Any person under 18 years of age.

    bttm line... >18yos can own a a firearm according to NC statuates but can not buy one until 21 per ATF guidelines which is what the local sheriffs are following for their basic purchase permit.

    have a 19yo friend who oc and we are going to generate a business card document stating his father is the owner of the firearm listing it by type and s/n to produce to loe(s) in case he is queryed.

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    NavyLT is correct. I have a permit, a handgun and a court order to prove 18, 19 and 20 year olds can purchase and possess handguns legally in NC.

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    Regular Member wabbit's Avatar
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    sorry i had already gleaned this forum is cite conscious and did research applicable USCs prior to posting my comment...while firearms covers a gaggle, the ATF is quite specific...NavyLT said the same thing but emphasis is the last sentence is the one that wins...."minumum age 21"
    therefore, IAW with ATF's
    Federal Firearms Licensee Quick Reference and Best Practices Guide publication(page 5) Age Restrictions

    As noted above, under Federal law, the minimum age to purchase firearms and ammunition from an FFL is 18. If the firearm is other than a rifle or a shotgun—or ammunition for other than a rifle or a shotgun—the minimum age is 21 [18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1)]. (http://atf.gov/publications/download...-p-5300-15.pdf)

    which mirrors exactly what the code actually states:
    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
    manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
    deliver--
    (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee
    knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years
    of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun
    or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual
    who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less
    than twenty-one years of age;


    (http://law.justia.com/us/codes/title18/18usc922.html)

    now private sales w/NC statuate permit is a different story that i do not truly understand...

    unfortunately did not understand the one poster's comment they had a court order..? did not contain enough context to discern if it was a private sale or ffl sale?

    wabbit
    Last edited by wabbit; 01-20-2011 at 08:08 PM. Reason: correction

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    Quote Originally Posted by wabbit View Post
    now private sales w/NC statuate permit is a different story that i do not truly understand...
    In NC if you are between 18 and 21 years of age you can obtain a pistol purchase permit from your Sheriff and buy a handgun privately while remaining completely within the bounds of the law.


    Quote Originally Posted by wabbit View Post
    unfortunately did not understand the one poster's comment they had a court order..? did not contain enough context to discern if it was a private sale or ffl sale?

    wabbit
    That was me. After a run-in with uninformed local law enforcement, my pistol was seized since they were under the assumption that I was carrying illegally. After court Wednesday I was issued a Court Order that once again proved that someone less than 21 years of age could legally be the possessor/rightful owner of a handgun in the state of NC. Reclaimed my pistol from the PD yesterday afternoon.

    Here's the permit (I was 19 when issued):

    [IMG][/IMG]

    and here's the Court Order:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    and here's my baby that I just got back!

    [IMG][/IMG]

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    Grats!!!
    Taurus PT1911 .45 ACP. Carried in condition 1, with a total of 25 rounds.

    Vice President of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, ECU Chapter

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    Ok So i tried to email the Sheriff and a Captain I personally know replied. he said that NC goes by federal law and that federal law has a age requirement of 21 and he cited the "buying from a federally licensed dealer" section. I replied that that had nothing to do with a permit and there is no age requirement for a permit. He just replied with the same cited statue.

    So i called the attorney generals office and spoke to them about the age to recieve a permit. Without hesitating she said there isnt a age requirement and if the Sheriff has a question about it to call them. So..... i revisited the office again this time with more convidence and my blackberry on record. They once again said no that they can't do that and I asked if they will call the AG office becuase they said there isnt an age requirement. The officer just got mad and said hes not calling anyone. He said "the sheriff can deny for any reason" and I said "yes but if it is because i am underage and there is no age requirement then that doesnt make sense." More going back and forth.....Then i said will you show me where it says i have to be 21 and he said " no we dont have the laws here" Me: "you are a police station and issue permits but dont have the laws on guns?" Him : "i dont have to show you anything" then the lady behind the desk said she has it. I started smiling becuase i knew what statue she was about to read. her: "it is illegal for a ...." and I finished the sentence for her " federally licensed dealer to sell..." Me: "well that has nothing to do with a permit." Officer: "well who are you going to buy from then (laughing). Me: " my dad and since he is an individual that law doesnt matter in my case" The lady just looked up from her book at the officer becuase she couldnt find where it said i had to be 21. He just kept saying no and made no sense in his arguement. I said " So even though there is no law stating a age requirement you still wont issue one?" Officer: "yep" I then asked for them to fill out the permit, run the check, and deny it based on age. They both said no they cant do it since im underage. I tried to explain i need it denied so i can appeal it and they said the Sheriff can "entertain " that request. Pissed off I just walked out. So thats where im at now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcGlock19 View Post
    Ok So i tried to email the Sheriff and a Captain I personally know replied. he said that NC goes by federal law and that federal law has a age requirement of 21 and he cited the "buying from a federally licensed dealer" section. I replied that that had nothing to do with a permit and there is no age requirement for a permit. He just replied with the same cited statue.

    So i called the attorney generals office and spoke to them about the age to recieve a permit. Without hesitating she said there isnt a age requirement and if the Sheriff has a question about it to call them. So..... i revisited the office again this time with more convidence and my blackberry on record. They once again said no that they can't do that and I asked if they will call the AG office becuase they said there isnt an age requirement. The officer just got mad and said hes not calling anyone. He said "the sheriff can deny for any reason" and I said "yes but if it is because i am underage and there is no age requirement then that doesnt make sense." More going back and forth.....Then i said will you show me where it says i have to be 21 and he said " no we dont have the laws here" Me: "you are a police station and issue permits but dont have the laws on guns?" Him : "i dont have to show you anything" then the lady behind the desk said she has it. I started smiling becuase i knew what statue she was about to read. her: "it is illegal for a ...." and I finished the sentence for her " federally licensed dealer to sell..." Me: "well that has nothing to do with a permit." Officer: "well who are you going to buy from then (laughing). Me: " my dad and since he is an individual that law doesnt matter in my case" The lady just looked up from her book at the officer becuase she couldnt find where it said i had to be 21. He just kept saying no and made no sense in his arguement. I said " So even though there is no law stating a age requirement you still wont issue one?" Officer: "yep" I then asked for them to fill out the permit, run the check, and deny it based on age. They both said no they cant do it since im underage. I tried to explain i need it denied so i can appeal it and they said the Sheriff can "entertain " that request. Pissed off I just walked out. So thats where im at now.
    Call the AG, send them a copy of the voice recording I know you made since you knew you were going to have trouble, and have them contact the Sheriff's office.
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    yeah ag should be able to get the sheriff off his arse..

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    Well here is what im having trouble understand. The officer says that the sheriff, BJ Barnes, can deny a permit for any reason. I told him i agree but... you are denying me one because you claim I am underage but yet there is no age requirement. He said that the Sheriff BJ Barnes has restrictions on who can recieve on and being 21 is a restriction he made. I don't see how a sheriff can make his own laws or restriction. Here is the link to the counties handgun permit page that says you must be 21.

    http://www.guilfordcountysheriff.com...=78&Itemid=290

    What about getting a non-resident permit from another county more gun friendly for "collecting" what does "collecting" mean? If i carry it all the time is that still collecting?

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Ok, let me try this again.

    Record them when you go in.

    Don't be shy; let them know you're recording them. Have that recorder right out where it will get the best quality audio possible. Then emphasize the following things:

    Quote Originally Posted by § 14‑404. Issuance or refusal of permit; appeal from refusal; grounds for refusal; sheriff's fee.

    (a) Upon application, the sheriff shall issue the license or permit to a resident of that county, unless the purpose of the permit is for collecting, in which case a sheriff can issue a permit to a nonresident, when the sheriff has done all of the following:

    (1) Verified, before the issuance of a permit, by a criminal history background investigation that it is not a violation of State or federal law for the applicant to purchase, transfer, receive, or possess a handgun. The sheriff shall determine the criminal and background history of any applicant by accessing computerized criminal history records as maintained by the State Bureau of Investigation and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, by conducting a national criminal history records check, by conducting a check through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), and by conducting a criminal history check through the Administrative Office of the Courts.

    (2) Fully satisfied himself or herself by affidavits, oral evidence, or otherwise, as to the good moral character of the applicant.

    (3) Fully satisfied himself or herself that the applicant desires the possession of the weapon mentioned for (i) the protection of the home, business, person, family or property, (ii) target shooting, (iii) collecting, or (iv) hunting.

    (b) If the sheriff is not fully satisfied, the sheriff may, for good cause shown, decline to issue the license or permit and shall provide to the applicant within seven days of the refusal a written statement of the reason(s) for the refusal. An appeal from the refusal shall lie by way of petition to the chief judge of the district court for the district in which the application was filed. The determination by the court, on appeal, shall be upon the facts, the law, and the reasonableness of the sheriff's refusal, and shall be final.
    Once you get that, come back and let us know. Things should get easier from that point. That is, of course, assuming they don't decide when they see the recorder that hey, maybe they should just issue the permit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    Ok, let me try this again.

    Record them when you go in.

    Don't be shy; let them know you're recording them. Have that recorder right out where it will get the best quality audio possible. Then emphasize the following things:



    Once you get that, come back and let us know. Things should get easier from that point. That is, of course, assuming they don't decide when they see the recorder that hey, maybe they should just issue the permit.
    I did record it this time. Can Sheriff add to the requirements though? On the county website it says you must be 21. I am scheduling a meeting with the Sheriff tomorrow. The officer I spoke with today is a lieutenant.

  23. #23
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Post the audio you have. Go to the meeting with the Sheriff tomorrow, and record that too. Ask him what authority he has to impose additional restrictions on who may receive a purchase permit.
    "They don't give a damn about any trumpet playing band
    It ain't what they call rock and roll
    And the Sultans...
    Yeah the Sultans, they play Creole"

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    Well good news and bad news....Bad news is the lady at the Sheriffs office wont return my call on setting up a meeting. I called last night and it went to voicemail after being redirected and the same thing today. Next step i will just go the the office personally.

    Good news...I found the statue i was looking for that says the sheriff cant add restrictions. http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedl...14-409.40.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by calynn View Post
    In NC if you are between 18 and 21 years of age you can obtain a pistol purchase permit from your Sheriff and buy a handgun privately while remaining completely within the bounds of the law.




    That was me. After a run-in with uninformed local law enforcement, my pistol was seized since they were under the assumption that I was carrying illegally. After court Wednesday I was issued a Court Order that once again proved that someone less than 21 years of age could legally be the possessor/rightful owner of a handgun in the state of NC. Reclaimed my pistol from the PD yesterday afternoon.

    Here's the permit (I was 19 when issued):

    [IMG][/IMG]

    and here's the Court Order:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    and here's my baby that I just got back!

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Out of curiousity
    When your gun was seized --did the officers ever make an issue of you being under 21 or was it siezed only because they thought you were carrying illegally ??

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