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Recent Arizona shooting - observations
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nuc65
Activist Member
I don't yet fully understand the logic of "Thus always to Tyrants" if Latin serves me. I'll have to google it later.
1) I imagine a number of people were carrying but afraid when it comes down to it. I know many people who run away first, or with the 'not my problem' attitude. I commend the crazy sheepdog running the wrong [sic] way
2) It was a liberal meeting if someone was carrying and not afraid they might have been busy analyzing the crazy man's needs and wants to determine if he should be pitied or how much to put in his hat.
3) It was a liberal meeting nobody was carrying or if they were they were ashamed to let there friends know.
4) The people who were carrying were too far away to do anything useful in the short amount of time of the event.
Maybe some other?
Maybe living in a pro-2A state many don't feel the need to exercise the right, because they aren't concerned that it would be taken away?
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jmelvin
Founder's Club Member
Be careful with that assumption, it is likely a faulty one. We're talking about Democrats from a state where people take pride in their self determination and ability to take care of themselves. Before laying such a charge solely at the feet of Democrats think of how many Republicans willingly showed up at Eric Cantor's event, bringing both spoken and financial report in a location where they knew guns were not even allowed! How many Republicans go about unarmed on a day to day basis with never a desire to change? This is not necessarily a trait of one party over another, but a trait of those who take no responsibility for their own safety for whatever reason.
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Placementvs.Calibur
Regular Member
The assumption now a days by most is that guns are evil, not people. The fact that this country was founded and defended by brave men and women who used the most efficient tool which mans will created is as absent as the idea that our founders created documents which outlined our "uninaliable rights." When these ideas were popular the idea of a two party system didn't necesarily exist, or wasn't the basis of creating this country or its laws. News Flash: These ideas are coming back by popular demand. (Please forgive spelling)
Sic Semper Tyrannis
Sic Semper Tyrannis
C
coolfrmn
Guest
It very well could be. But, regardless of her being a self proclaimed " Blue Dog Democrat" & former Republican. & She opposed the Washington D.C. gun ban, signing an Amicus curiae brief with the U.S. Supreme Court to support its overturn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabrielle_Giffords
Most Dems I've run into on the street level, even the one's that support hunting & outdoor recreations, aren't "gun friendly". Haven't seen too many OC or CC. If any. They believe the police are there to protect them. It's not up to us for self protection.
( I happen to have a LARGE family of in-laws, mostly female, that are VERY LIBERAL/DEMOCRATS. They are married to guys who like to hunt. But also think guns are bad.) ( I've actually been told, "It's not my job to protect my family." Needless to say, there have been some heated discussions in my house. When I've given them hard facts about emergency response times, how many on duty at a time, how quick attacks can occure, etc. they have loosened their tight oppinion while in my home. They have learned when I care enough to stand my ground, I came with hard proof for them to read. All they had were what ifs.) When I tell them stories of the calls I've run in the past 18 & 1/2 years as a Firefighter/ EMT, Dispatcher & police ride alongs, they tend to go silent. So, for me, it's a fairly safe assumption.
& yes, I'm aware of Republicans that aren't "gun friendly" or claim to be despite holding functions in a Gun Free zone.:uhoh:
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Smith45acp
Regular Member
I respectfully disagree.
I think crazy is just crazy, and from the little information I have read about this sociopath I can't blame anyone but him for forming and carrying out his deviant plan.
p.publius
Regular Member
Another Observation...
Gabby Giffords was shot with "WalMart" ammo. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that he used a full metal jacketed (FMJ) round and that was all that was in his magazine. If he has used the more expensive (and harder to come by) Jacketed Hollow Points (JHP), Ms Giffords would be dead.
See he wasn't trying to kill, just maim.:uhoh:
Gabby Giffords was shot with "WalMart" ammo. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that he used a full metal jacketed (FMJ) round and that was all that was in his magazine. If he has used the more expensive (and harder to come by) Jacketed Hollow Points (JHP), Ms Giffords would be dead.
See he wasn't trying to kill, just maim.:uhoh:
Mr H
Regular Member
45acpForMe
Newbie
I disagree. If he was using FMJ ammo he probably was just too ignorant to know about HP.
I seriously doubt he pointed the gun at her head simply to maim her!!! If he wanted to maim he would have aimed somewhere less lethal.
I disagree with the hollowpoint argument!
Hollowpoints at handgun velocities do not expand dependably, even in real handgun calibers.
While the typical FMJ RN is not the best stopping round, they at least feed dependably in most guns.
Big bullets with a wide meplat still give the most predictable stopping performance.
In my revolvers, that means true Keith style bullets cast hard and loaded hot. In my Auto's, semi wadcutters cast hard and loaded as hot as I can and still have reliable feeding.
Hollowpoints are a feelgood placebo in a handgun.
Hollowpoints at handgun velocities do not expand dependably, even in real handgun calibers.
While the typical FMJ RN is not the best stopping round, they at least feed dependably in most guns.
Big bullets with a wide meplat still give the most predictable stopping performance.
In my revolvers, that means true Keith style bullets cast hard and loaded hot. In my Auto's, semi wadcutters cast hard and loaded as hot as I can and still have reliable feeding.
Hollowpoints are a feelgood placebo in a handgun.
Federal's HST +P in .45 ACP, item #P45HST1. Federal rates this ammo at 960 FPS at the muzzle with 470 Ft. Lbs. of energy at the muzzle, so pretty hot... for a flying ashtray.
:lol:
:lol::lol:
http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-2.html
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I said predictably GS (I think)..:uhoh:
Shooting test bullets into known medium for the camera is a far cry from shooting at someone that may be wearing heavy coats, have cell phones or other electronics in the pocket, shooting through a car window or door, hitting bone or not hitting it.
Back in the pre super hollow point days when I had to carry a .38, i used to invert HBWC's as the doomsday round. After a lot of testing I decided there simply wasn't any such thing even when I jacketed them and cut striations in the jacket.
A ball bearing hot glued in the cavity worked prety wel but would have been hard to explain in court.
I'll let you all keep the super HP's. I'll stick with my big hole in, big hole out philosophy.:lol:
BTW, my solid brass blammy bullets don't expand at all.:uhoh:
Shooting test bullets into known medium for the camera is a far cry from shooting at someone that may be wearing heavy coats, have cell phones or other electronics in the pocket, shooting through a car window or door, hitting bone or not hitting it.
Back in the pre super hollow point days when I had to carry a .38, i used to invert HBWC's as the doomsday round. After a lot of testing I decided there simply wasn't any such thing even when I jacketed them and cut striations in the jacket.
A ball bearing hot glued in the cavity worked prety wel but would have been hard to explain in court.
I'll let you all keep the super HP's. I'll stick with my big hole in, big hole out philosophy.:lol:
BTW, my solid brass blammy bullets don't expand at all.:uhoh:
Dreamer
Regular Member
Peter, I will land solidly with Grapeshot on this one. Well-designed JHPs have a proven track record, both on the range and in the field, and have been doing so for years.
The FBI's annual ammo test report (which is nearly impossible for "citizens" to get their hands on, but I used to have access to when I worked for a large DOJ contractor) put all the common calibers and brands of high-quality JHPs through some SERIOUS tests, including shooting through multiple layers of clothing, auto glass, and wallboard. It is performance of ammo in the FBI tests that is one of the deciding factors for most State, Local, and Federal LEAs with regards to ammo contracts, and for those of us with access to this information, the FBI tests have been HIGHLY influential in our decisions for what we carry for self defense.
Although I don't fully agree with the FBI's Ammo Testing procedures and requirements (I think they require a LOT more penetration than is needed for a self-defense round in about 99% of situations), they are VERY systematic, scientific, and well-documented. If you can get your hands on a copy--even if it's a few years old--they make for some interesting (albeit VERY dry) reading, and will change your mind on how some calibers and brands of JHP ammo perform in extreme situations...
You make some valid points with regards to expansion--and the FBI tests bear this out--if you are shooting THROUGH a lot of crap (heavy coats, wallboard, windshields, bookbags, etc) then even the best-designed hollowpoints DO tend to clog up and this inhibits expansion. But all the "good brands" STILL expand, and I don't know about you, but If I'm shooting a .45acp, and it only expands 50% (rather than 100%) at terminal stop, that's still a MUCH larger hole than a .44 FMJ with no expansion. This isn't rocket science...
There is a reason why LEOs carry JHPs--they work better than FMJ rounds with regards to stopping power and also have much lower probability for over-penetration.
Hollowpoints are-in fact--a SAFETY feature because they are MUCH less likely to produce a "through-and through" shot...
The FBI's annual ammo test report (which is nearly impossible for "citizens" to get their hands on, but I used to have access to when I worked for a large DOJ contractor) put all the common calibers and brands of high-quality JHPs through some SERIOUS tests, including shooting through multiple layers of clothing, auto glass, and wallboard. It is performance of ammo in the FBI tests that is one of the deciding factors for most State, Local, and Federal LEAs with regards to ammo contracts, and for those of us with access to this information, the FBI tests have been HIGHLY influential in our decisions for what we carry for self defense.
Although I don't fully agree with the FBI's Ammo Testing procedures and requirements (I think they require a LOT more penetration than is needed for a self-defense round in about 99% of situations), they are VERY systematic, scientific, and well-documented. If you can get your hands on a copy--even if it's a few years old--they make for some interesting (albeit VERY dry) reading, and will change your mind on how some calibers and brands of JHP ammo perform in extreme situations...
You make some valid points with regards to expansion--and the FBI tests bear this out--if you are shooting THROUGH a lot of crap (heavy coats, wallboard, windshields, bookbags, etc) then even the best-designed hollowpoints DO tend to clog up and this inhibits expansion. But all the "good brands" STILL expand, and I don't know about you, but If I'm shooting a .45acp, and it only expands 50% (rather than 100%) at terminal stop, that's still a MUCH larger hole than a .44 FMJ with no expansion. This isn't rocket science...
There is a reason why LEOs carry JHPs--they work better than FMJ rounds with regards to stopping power and also have much lower probability for over-penetration.
Hollowpoints are-in fact--a SAFETY feature because they are MUCH less likely to produce a "through-and through" shot...
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t33j
Regular Member
Is that what you carry GS? I only have 1 box and can't seem to get any more!
That and Corbon DPX which has some very satisfactory properties though heavy clothing and barrriers.
Have been fortunate to score a box of HST from time to time and at very low prices from my secret supplier. < gun shows >
All American Nightmare
Regular Member
Well, that seems to be the attitude of Delegate Delegate Patrick A. Hope(D) - House District 47:
HB 1813 Possession of handguns in legislative buildings.
Read the Summary:
A (free?) checking service!How thoughtful.
The privileged ones -- as always -- are exempt.
I was there when that bill was presented in subcommittee. The bill was doomed from Hope's first word. Peter Nap has a video of it called The Peoples House. Hope said he knew it was going to be a uphill battle.
All American Nightmare
Regular Member
Has anyone ever ever filed a FOIA for the ammo test report?
Repeater
Regular Member
Dreamer
Regular Member
I doubt you could get one through FOIA. They are clearly marked on the covers and inside they are for "distribution to Law Enforcement Only"...
And I can neither confirm or deny the existence of 4 copies of this report from the mid 1990's in my personal library...
We had a chance to discuss this this morning.
This argument has been going on almost as long as the best caliber for Deer hunting:lol::lol:
and it ain't likely to be settled anytime soon.
BTW Dreamer, I read the FBI studies and wasn't moved one bit...especially since during that time I saw agents carrying 9mm's (If they had recently graduated) .38 Spl's (The norm at the time), .45 ACP if they were in a specialized group and a 10mm for just to round it out.
For the rank and file agents, shooting isn't a strong point.
I know all the arguments, been there, done that, played with new fangled toys, and as far as I'm concerned...Elmer Keith got it right.:banana:
Now that we have that out of the way, did you know the 45/70 was the perfect Deer rifle?:lol:
This argument has been going on almost as long as the best caliber for Deer hunting:lol::lol:
and it ain't likely to be settled anytime soon.
BTW Dreamer, I read the FBI studies and wasn't moved one bit...especially since during that time I saw agents carrying 9mm's (If they had recently graduated) .38 Spl's (The norm at the time), .45 ACP if they were in a specialized group and a 10mm for just to round it out.
For the rank and file agents, shooting isn't a strong point.
I know all the arguments, been there, done that, played with new fangled toys, and as far as I'm concerned...Elmer Keith got it right.:banana:
Now that we have that out of the way, did you know the 45/70 was the perfect Deer rifle?:lol: