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Thread: LEO Encounter in La Mesa - First time UOC by myself

  1. #1
    Regular Member Ruiner.NIN's Avatar
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    LEO Encounter in La Mesa - First time UOC by myself

    My friends and I were meeting up at a restaurant in La Mesa. I was the first one there and I was UOC.

    Two gentlemen immediately noticed my weapon and started chattering. After a few minutes, I had the following conversation with one of them;

    "What department are you in", he asked.
    "I am not in a department."
    "Why are you carrying a gun?"
    "I am exercising my second amendment rights."
    "Is it loaded?"
    "No, that's illegal."

    Afterwards, I began thinking how I should have brought pamphlets or some informational materials. Also, I decided to gett up and lock up my weapon in the car.

    When I returned to the restaurant, I noticed that the same gentleman was on the phone. I knew he was calling the police. Sure enough, a few minutes later I saw a police cruiser coming down the street. Moments later, 2 police officers entered.

    I had brought a video camera but in my nervousness I forgot to turn it on.

    The conversation with the LEO went something like this;

    "Hi, I am office so-and-so. I realize you are exercising your second amendment rights. Were you carrying a weapon earlier?"
    "I was but I put it back in my car."
    "Is it locked up?"
    "Yes, I locked it with a firearm safety device."
    "Are you carrying anything illegal?"
    "illegal? no, nothing like that."
    "Could I ask you for your ID?"
    "No, I would rather not."
    "Ok, that's fine. I just wanted to let you know that if people call we will come out and check", he said that as he was leaving. I thanked him and left it at that.


    Some of the lessons I learned was:
    1. Have information materials prepared.
    2. Turn on the camera!
    Last edited by Ruiner.NIN; 01-11-2011 at 02:56 PM.

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    I just sent you an IM.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Regular Member Ruiner.NIN's Avatar
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    Thanks GunDude. I took your advice and updated my post.

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruiner.NIN View Post
    Thanks GunDude. I took your advice and updated my post.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Regular Member Born2Lose's Avatar
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    Cool but why did you chicken out and lock up your gun. It makes you look like you have something to hide. You really need a recorder you can lock on and forget about. Like other people have said you don't want to be fumbling around for anything when a cop shows up.
    What i did is i took a double sided reduced copy of this http://www.californiaopencarry.org/C...aOpenCarry.pdf and ghetto laminated it (used clear wide packing tape). I keep it in my pocket when i UOC even if i don't have flyers.
    "If I don't have my pistol, I feel sort of naked." -Unosuke Gunfighter in the movie Yojimbo

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    Regular Member OC KIMBER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruiner.NIN View Post
    My friends and I were meeting up at a restaurant in La Mesa. I was the first one there and I was UOC.

    Two gentlemen immediately noticed my weapon and started chattering. After a few minutes, I had the following conversation with one of them;

    "What department are you in", he asked.
    "I am not in a department."
    "Why are you carrying a gun?"
    "I am exercising my second amendment rights."
    "Is it loaded?"
    "No, that's illegal."

    Afterwards, I began thinking how I should have brought pamphlets or some informational materials. Also, I decided to gett up and lock up my weapon in the car.

    When I returned to the restaurant, I noticed that the same gentleman was on the phone. I knew he was calling the police. Sure enough, a few minutes later I saw a police cruiser coming down the street. Moments later, 2 police officers entered.

    I had brought a video camera but in my nervousness I forgot to turn it on.

    The conversation with the LEO went something like this;

    "Hi, I am office so-and-so. I realize you are exercising your second amendment rights. Were you carrying a weapon earlier?"
    "I was but I put it back in my car."
    "Is it locked up?"
    "Yes, I locked it with a firearm safety device."
    "Are you carrying anything illegal?"
    "illegal? no, nothing like that."
    "Could I ask you for your ID?"
    "No, I would rather not."
    "Ok, that's fine. I just wanted to let you know that if people call we will come out and check", he said that as he was leaving. I thanked him and left it at that.


    Some of the lessons I learned was:
    1. Have information materials prepared.
    2. Turn on the camera!
    Don't worry about it everybody is nervous the first time. You have had a taste of what can happen and evaluated what you need to do, practice what your going to say have the proper equipment ( and turned on) stand your ground and by that I mean knowing the law and you will do fine next time you have a LEO encounter. Welcome to the club

  7. #7
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    La Mesa is tough lots of schools, can you advise what restaurant, location. Confirm outside 1000 foot zones, and next time you go Ill go with you, post it, you be surprised how much support and help you may get.
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruiner.NIN View Post
    The conversation with the LEO went something like this;

    "Hi, I am office so-and-so. I realize you are exercising your second amendment rights. Were you carrying a weapon earlier?"
    "I was but I put it back in my car."
    "Is it locked up?"
    "Yes, I locked it with a firearm safety device."
    "Are you carrying anything illegal?"
    "illegal? no, nothing like that."
    "Could I ask you for your ID?"
    "No, I would rather not."
    "Ok, that's fine. I just wanted to let you know that if people call we will come out and check", he said that as he was leaving. I thanked him and left it at that.
    I personally wouldn't have answered any questions. When you told the officer your firearm was in your car you opened up a possible 12031(e) check since now the officer knew there was a firearm present. It's also possible that if you happened to be unknowingly in a school zone and you admitted to have been carrying a firearm that you could have been arrested for a 626.9 violation (even if you were on private property, see Theseus' case).

  9. #9
    Regular Member Ruiner.NIN's Avatar
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    You're right. I should not have answered those questions. I can see how that could come back to haunt me.

    Next time, I won't admit anything.

    I should have answered with, "I am exercising my right to remain silent."

    In the moment, I did not want to lie to the office so I told the truth. Again, I could have invoked the 5th.


    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    I personally wouldn't have answered any questions. When you told the officer your firearm was in your car you opened up a possible 12031(e) check since now the officer knew there was a firearm present. It's also possible that if you happened to be unknowingly in a school zone and you admitted to have been carrying a firearm that you could have been arrested for a 626.9 violation (even if you were on private property, see Theseus' case).

  10. #10
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    Dont sweat it to much, we all forget things when UOC'ing, adrenaline gets flowing we get a little tunnel vision, it happens, lets focus on what you did right and improve for next time and talk about standard must follow rules.,

    Securing your weapon when your unsure is not a bad thing, never feel like you cant protect yourself by making the situation stronger for yourself.

    Meeting with a friend is good, solo carrying has more risks, and can be potentially more likely for LE encounter.

    Ok so here are my rules to follow all the time, other people may have different and im sure they will comment as well. These are just mine.
    1) the recording device is on from the moment you are out in public and your weapon is visible on your hip. PERIOD, no exceptions.
    2) always have 2 recording devices on you. preferably one of them is video. they dont have to be both running but you should be able to activate the backup quickly and unobtrusively at the first sign of LE in the vicinity.
    3) You are an ambassador of truth and good citizenship, if john q public looks at your weapon then makes eye contact with you, smile, say hi, be warm and open, be approachable. If someone asks you questions answer them and offer more info, engage a conversation, draw them out, teach and allay misguided fears. Dont let them leave with doubt and fear if at all possible. Which means ALWAYS carry literature.
    4) When encountering LE, match there level of civility and be just a bit more cordial then they are. This will strengthen your case if it ever goes to court and you use your recording. ALWAYS ask for badge number, name and immediate supervisor.
    5) NEVER GIVE YOUR ID, carry sterile when UOC'ing it will protect you.


    as for LE contacts you have to gauge each instance differently, are they nervous, scared, dominating, controlling, respectful, disrespectful. And respond to that individually, if they look nervous, say something. heres an example "Officer you look a little nervous to me, what can I do to make you feel less nervous?" or for a dominator "Officer I respect you position and will comply with your directions, I want this to be easy for both of us".

    Remember most LE questions to you are fishing expeditions to compile evidence to try and stick a penal code violation to you. Be evsaive, use verbal Judo, but decline respectfully to help them. (below is a cut and paste with some edits).

    Hi, I am officer so-and-so. I realize you are exercising your second amendment rights. Were you carrying a weapon earlier?"
    "I was legally carrying a weapon......(but I put it back in my car is not needed)"Is it locked up?"
    Its lawfully secured "(Yes, I locked it with a firearm safety device not needed)" "Are you carrying anything illegal?"
    "Im not carrying anything illegally (illegal? no, nothing like that." try to avoid yes no answers as much as possible) "Could I ask you for your ID?"
    "No, I would rather not." GOOD better would be I dont have any on me"Ok, that's fine. I just wanted to let you know that if people call we will come out and check", he said that as he was leaving. I thanked him and left it at that.

    If the officer wanted to fish more with questions I would immediately go to...
    Officer am I under arrest?
    Am I being detained for investigation?
    Am I free to go?

    The most likely reasons they will give you is, we just want to know who you are, people get scared when they see guns, why are you carrying, are you trying to make a political statement, we have to check you out, we need your name for the report.

    These are all BS, they are using verbal Judo to get you to voluntarily disclose info and are infringing your 4th ammendment rights. Be firm and polite but decline to help them incriminate you.
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

  11. #11
    Regular Member Ruiner.NIN's Avatar
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    Now I am really happy I did not identify myself!


    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    I personally wouldn't have answered any questions. When you told the officer your firearm was in your car you opened up a possible 12031(e) check since now the officer knew there was a firearm present. It's also possible that if you happened to be unknowingly in a school zone and you admitted to have been carrying a firearm that you could have been arrested for a 626.9 violation (even if you were on private property, see Theseus' case).

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    oc

    when im out and i oc i try not to tell people that im not a cop or anything, its none of there buisness.i just tell them i can leagly carry and that if they have concern to call police. just because people ask you a question doesnt mean you have to give them info about you.( its no fun being kicked out of places )in other words you dont have to preach oc 24/7. but i do go out on certain days just to preach oc and hand out flyers, so pick and choose wisely when and how and where to explain your 2A privalages and when your just out for dinner or shopping keep private because there is a time and place for everything. understand ?

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    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by larry worth View Post
    when im out and i oc i try not to tell people that im not a cop or anything, its none of there buisness.i just tell them i can leagly carry and that if they have concern to call police. just because people ask you a question doesnt mean you have to give them info about you.( its no fun being kicked out of places )in other words you dont have to preach oc 24/7. but i do go out on certain days just to preach oc and hand out flyers, so pick and choose wisely when and how and where to explain your 2A rights and when your just out for dinner or shopping keep private because there is a time and place for everything. understand ?
    Fixed.
    Last edited by hgreen; 01-12-2011 at 12:18 AM. Reason: made bold for those that are color blind

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    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    @Ruiner.NIN Where in La Mesa did you OC.. Please advise.
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

  15. #15
    Regular Member Ruiner.NIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firemark View Post
    @Ruiner.NIN Where in La Mesa did you OC.. Please advise.

    Hey, I sent you a PM.

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    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruiner.NIN View Post
    Hey, I sent you a PM.
    got it thanx
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

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    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    It seems lots of people forget to turn on their recorders when police arrive. I think the best way to prevent that is to turn it on the minute you start carrying. My IPhone can record for about 7 hours and most cheap recorders can do at leats 2 hours.
    Better yet, start carrying the minute you turn on your recorder. Record first, carry second.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    Regular Member wewd's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Trigger and cable locks are legally meaningless outside of the home, they are NOT an authorized method of securing a firearm in a school zone. Leave your "firearm safety device" baby locks at home and always secure your firearms in a fully inclosed locking container. Especially do not admit to the police that you may be violating the law.
    Do you want to enjoy liberty in your lifetime?

    Consider moving to New Hampshire as part of the Free State Project.

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    Regular Member CenTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by larry worth View Post
    when im out and i oc i try not to tell people that im not a cop or anything, its none of there buisness.i just tell them i can leagly carry and that if they have concern to call police. just because people ask you a question doesnt mean you have to give them info about you.( its no fun being kicked out of places )in other words you dont have to preach oc 24/7. but i do go out on certain days just to preach oc and hand out flyers, so pick and choose wisely when and how and where to explain your 2A privalages and when your just out for dinner or shopping keep private because there is a time and place for everything. understand ?
    Your wording in the first sentence is strange. You "try" not to tell people that you are not a cop. This can be taken that at some times you do tell them that you are an LEO, or that you are an LEO and don't want to tell them, or that you "sometimes" tell them you are not an LEO. Are you an LEO or not? I think I understand what you meant to convey. It is the part that is underlined. What you wrote leads to questions, by people like me, on what you meant.

    Why would you tell anyone to call the police? Those who carry are trying to avoid all meetings with the police. They want other citizens to look upon them as ordinary citizens going about their daily lives. Why ask for more problems? There is enough problems with the fact that you carry, since citizens have been led to believe that carrying a firearm in any manner is against the law or that all firearms are bad.

    From the way you have explained it here, you do not make it a habit to "preach OC" as a part of your "normal" daily life when you carry. That, however, seems to me to be the very perfect situation that the members of this forum have in mind. They want to take every opportunity that presents itself during their "normal" lives while carrying to teach the public about the right to carry. Many express that they're sorry when they have failed in taking advantage of such an opportunity.

    Having said all this, carry and "preach" the way that "you" feel most comfortable and safe. Bottoms up!

    Side note: Do you have a spell checker?
    Last edited by CenTex; 01-14-2011 at 11:45 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wewd View Post
    Trigger and cable locks are legally meaningless outside of the home, they are NOT an authorized method of securing a firearm in a school zone. Leave your "firearm safety device" baby locks at home and always secure your firearms in a fully inclosed locking container. Especially do not admit to the police that you may be violating the law.
    Egads! I thought the same thing, but it took reading your post to bring it fully to my consciousness.

    This makes two strikes against taking the gun off and putting it in the car, methinks.

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    Regular Member Born2Lose's Avatar
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    Ruiner- you bought an XD. I carry and XD9SC. I use the nice plastic case it came with and bought a 3 dollar TSA wordlock at Walmart (for a bit of irony be sure to UOC while buying it).
    I got one of these on clearance at walmart or target a year or so ago.
    http://www.tamperseal.com/wordlock-t...ock-p-199.html

    I just keep it one letter off so it's easy to get into.
    "If I don't have my pistol, I feel sort of naked." -Unosuke Gunfighter in the movie Yojimbo

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Lose View Post
    Ruiner- you bought an XD. I carry and XD9SC. I use the nice plastic case it came with and bought a 3 dollar TSA wordlock at Walmart (for a bit of irony be sure to UOC while buying it).
    I got one of these on clearance at walmart or target a year or so ago.
    http://www.tamperseal.com/wordlock-t...ock-p-199.html

    I just keep it one letter off so it's easy to get into.
    I can still get into my XD case even with a padlock on. Same with many manufacturer's cases. Make sure it is secure.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Born2Lose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    I can still get into my XD case even with a padlock on. Same with many manufacturer's cases. Make sure it is secure.
    From this calguns law wiki
    http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...ed_anywhere.3F

    Is a "secure locked container" defined anywhere?
    No, there is no legal definition of ‘secure locked container.' There many varieties offered commercially; if you don’t personally think one is ‘secure,' buy one you think is secure.
    "If I don't have my pistol, I feel sort of naked." -Unosuke Gunfighter in the movie Yojimbo

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    Here is my take on it.

    1) It is not a crime to lie to a police officer, only a Federal officer. That said, misleading an officer in the course of an investigation is a crime. However, to have an investigation a crime has to have been committed. Keep that in mind.

    2) Record BEFORE you remove your gun from its storage place. There is no arguing that point, it is a necessity. With all the time that has been expended on all the material that has been posted on this and many other matters, there is no excuse for newbie mistakes like this.

    3) Most factory cases are not really "secure" and are pretty much only a viable means of conveyance to and from a shop. Can you lift up a corner and touch your gun with a finger? If so, then it is not secure. Trigger safety devices to not count and are even more of a hindrance, so leave them at home. A soft bag with a small padlock and a key tied to the bag is a great way to go, just make sure the zippers can be locked really close to one another to prevent any meddling or gun touching.

    4) Admitting to a cop where your gun was located might have initiated a car search, possibly with handcuffs. DO NOT OFFER INFORMATION TO COPS! Just be quiet.

    That's all I have for now.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pullnshoot25 View Post
    Here is my take on it.

    1) It is not a crime to lie to a police officer, only a Federal officer. That said, misleading an officer in the course of an investigation is a crime. However, to have an investigation a crime has to have been committed. Keep that in mind.

    2) Record BEFORE you remove your gun from its storage place. There is no arguing that point, it is a necessity. With all the time that has been expended on all the material that has been posted on this and many other matters, there is no excuse for newbie mistakes like this.

    3) Most factory cases are not really "secure" and are pretty much only a viable means of conveyance to and from a shop. Can you lift up a corner and touch your gun with a finger? If so, then it is not secure. Trigger safety devices to not count and are even more of a hindrance, so leave them at home. A soft bag with a small padlock and a key tied to the bag is a great way to go, just make sure the zippers can be locked really close to one another to prevent any meddling or gun touching.

    4) Admitting to a cop where your gun was located might have initiated a car search, possibly with handcuffs. DO NOT OFFER INFORMATION TO COPS! Just be quiet.

    That's all I have for now.
    I would add, just dont lie, answer truthfully or say nothing, getting caught in a lie or a misrepresentation really sets LE off that they are dealing with a potential criminal, not a LAC. Just from my experience when you dig in your heels dealing with LEO's your making it more likely they will not deal positively with you.

    PM me I have some pointers that might help.
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

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