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HB 2069 - "Constitutional" Carry

wylde007

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
3,035
Location
Va Beach, Occupied VA
Passing a law does not compel lawful conduct. It only provides for a means of punishment after the crime is committed.
Preach on, brother! Preach on!

I have been making this argument to all who will listen - and it does not just apply to carrying firearms for personal protection. It is particular to every aspect and every article of legislation passed in every session.
 

vt357

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
Messages
490
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
peter nap said:
Welcome to the world of the little people.
It breaks my heart that you would have to give up perks.

I do agree with you that having a permit should not get you special privileges over not having one. But the people whose rights are currently less violated (CHPs) shouldn't have to give up some of those rights to help the ones with their rights currently more violated. Don't rob from Peter to pay Paul so to speak. Just stop violating everyone's rights, make us truly equal (not equally violated), and follow the Constitution.

As written this bill should be called "UNconstitutional carry."

I would say if it passed as written I would just open carry more - but the place I am most likely to be detained (while driving) is also where I am most likely to carry concealed (in the console, glove box, etc)

Hmm just thought of something. Concealed carry in vehicle in a closed container without a permit passed last year. If I recall correctly it was written so that it was an exemption to the concealed carry statute (different than a permit which is basically a defense to the statute). That was what allowed you to keep a loaded gun in your glove box on school property, even if you don't have a permit. So if you had a concealed firearm in a closed container in your vehicle (as opposed to concealed under your seat), you would be exempt from that statute (whether you have a CHP or not) and would not have to inform or surrender correct?
 

VApatriot

Regular Member
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
998
Location
Burke/Blacksburg, Virginia, USA
While the CHP requirements are being left in place, CHP holders are not being exempted from the new requirements. It would require those with CHPs to inform that they are carrying concealed when detained in addition the requirement of surrendering upon request.

If you want to talk baby steps - make the duty to inform and to surrender your weapon upon request only apply to non-CHP holders. Then come back next year to try and get those removed for non-CHP holders as well. Call if P4P but why put additional restrictions on the permit holders? As written this bill is 1 step forwards but 2 steps back.

I would say if it passed as written I would just open carry more - but the place I am most likely to be detained (while driving) is also where I am most likely to carry concealed (in the console, glove box, etc)

In this case, I have no desire to see this bill pass as it is currently written.

I truly understand the plight and feelings of those who can't or don't want to get permits, but this would be a major step in the wrong direction. I personally carried for almost three years without a permit, and I hated the fact that I had to live under a different set of rules, but I never would have supported (and will not support) anything that will hurt more gun owners than it helps.

I completely understand the idea of taking small steps, and I want to be able to carry concealed without a permit just as much as anyone else in this group, but I do not believe that this is the way it should be done.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
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Messages
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Valhalla
In this case, I have no desire to see this bill pass as it is currently written.

I truly understand the plight and feelings of those who can't or don't want to get permits, but this would be a major step in the wrong direction. I personally carried for almost three years without a permit, and I hated the fact that I had to live under a different set of rules, but I never would have supported (and will not support) anything that will hurt more gun owners than it helps.

I completely understand the idea of taking small steps, and I want to be able to carry concealed without a permit just as much as anyone else in this group, but I do not believe that this is the way it should be done.

Well, while not a moot point, it is one that you have plenty of time to talk to Philip about it.
The chances of it passing this year are on par with death by meteorite.
It has been introduced though and that's a start.

but I never would have supported (and will not support) anything that will hurt more gun owners than it helps.

BTW, you might want to look at the percentage of gunowners that have permits. Having permit holders follow the same rules as non permit holders isn't even close to hurting more than it helps.
 
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wylde007

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
3,035
Location
Va Beach, Occupied VA
I guess some people want a right to remain a privilege.
There is an industry, of which the NRA holds a premier position, in which there is money to be made, hand-over-fist, by ensuring that legislation we regard as Perks-for-Permits (P4P) is in the foreground.

Anything else takes away from their support and, subsequently, financial base.
 

Red Dawg

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
399
Location
Eastern VA, with too many people
I said I was going to be silent, listen and learn but this is just bad on many levels to me. What happens if I don't tell him within what HE considers a reasonble time? What constitutes a reasonable LEO NEED to answer the question? Talking in the park? "Oh by the way, I am carrying a submachine gun" Traffic stop? RAS/TERRY stop? At what point does an interacion with a uniformed/un-uniformed LEO interaction warrant the NEED to tell him I am acting within my rights?
 

Repeater

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
2,498
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
Very low bar for comviction

"If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material, and when detained by a law-enforcement officer in his official capacity fails to inform the law-enforcement officer as soon as practicable of the possession, or fails to secure the weapon at the law-enforcement officer's direction or allow the law-enforcement officer to secure the weapon for the duration of the contact [...] he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor."

I despise how the authors of "Constitutional" carry bills feel these requirements are necessary. What exactly is "Constitutional" about requiring me to waive my right to silence and my right to be free from unwarranted seizures?

"I forgot" = fail ... Busted!

But hey, officer safety and all.

Seriously, though, refuses is better than fails.
 

Red Dawg

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
399
Location
Eastern VA, with too many people
permits, or not. I have an issue needing a permit for something that has been done for 240 plus years...I have lived and sworn to die for something that allows me to have and to hold something. There is no way this will not make me "peeved". The Big number 2 is ununalienable, and to me that means kiss my buttocks before you can make a motion to take it.
 

Jonesy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
416
Location
Alexandria, Virginia, USA
A law like this would further my decision not to obtain a CCP. First I have to give them fingerprints, then notify them I am carrying at every traffic stop? This seems to be going backwards.
 

Smurfologist

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2006
Messages
536
Location
Springfield by way of Chicago, Virginia, USA
Thanks, but No Thanks!!

I am getting the sentiment that HB 2069 doesn't go far enough. This Bill reminds me of a Pharmaceutical commercial where they say, up front, how great a particular drug is, then they tell you, very quickly, all of the bad things the drug could possibly do to you in the hopes that you will miss it :-} I hope that this bill gets well soon!
 

Tosta Dojen

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Messages
183
Location
Roanoke, Virginia, USA
It breaks my heart that you would have to give up perks.

Right now the cost of carrying concealed is fifty dollars. Should this bill become law, concealed carry would come at the cost of two of my most precious civil rights. I wouldn't really call those "perks."

The requirement to notify "as soon as practicable" is entirely vague, and gives the officer absolute discretion over whether or not to charge you with a Class 1 misdemeanor. If the officer starts with a long explanation about why you're being detained, and you wait until he's finished to tell him about your concealed handgun, are you in violation? Was it "practicable" to interrupt him? If he doesn't like you, or the fact that you carry, you can bet on it.

This isn't a merely theoretical problem, either. In Ohio, which requires permit holders to notify "promptly", a man named Bryan L. was confronted by an officer who ordered him out of his vehicle at gunpoint (actually a taser, but he didn't know that at the time). After he complied with their orders, he told them about his permit and the guns stored in his car, whereupon they searched his car repeatedly, looking for evidence of wrongdoing. After finding none, the officers actively discussed whether there might be some charge they could lay against this "loser." They eventually settled on failing to inform, because, according to the charging document, he gave notice 51 seconds after he was first accosted. He was never charged with any other crime, and was eventually acquitted, after being dragged through a vicious trial.

The requirement to submit to a warrantless, suspicionless seizure is likewise intolerable. A law enforcement officer already has broad authority to seize weapons in circumstances where he reasonably fears for his safety. This bill specifically authorizes officers to seize my handgun for any reason whatsoever, or for none at all, except that the law says he can.

The seizure of a handgun where there is no specific threat from the carrier does not improve safety -- quite the contrary, it makes it worse! Handling a gun unnecessarily introduces the risk of a negligent discharge, and leave the citizen defenseless. Charlie Mitchener, a Las Vegas business owner, called police early one morning to report a break-in at his workplace. When he told the responding officer about his permit, she cuffed him, confiscated his gun, and went outside to stow it in her vehicle, leaving Mr. Mitchener alone and defenseless in a building that had not yet been cleared.

I can't support a bill with such awful intrusions on my liberty, and I can't fathom why they keep cropping up in so-called "Constitutional" carry legislation. I would gladly support the bill if they were removed.
 

palerider116

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
572
Location
Unknown
The problem with having "full time politicians" is having a group of people that are paid just to make up laws. Instead of coming together for a few months to work on pertinent and necessary legislation, they have too much time to come together and continuously make up new laws. Given time, there will be legislation addressing everything under the Sun.

Fewer laws would work better than more laws. Punishment should be the deterrent, not the law. Carrying a concealed weapon? That shouldn't be a crime. Rob somebody? Rob a store? Murder someone? Then it should be prosecuted to the fullest extent and punished severely. In my opinion, the quick release of violent offenders and lack of punishment is the problem. A law is only good after the commission of the crime.

Not only is it to keep and bear arms, it is a STRONGER deterrent. The bad guy doesn't know who is going to have the means to defend themselves or others. After a few felonious minded individuals are dispatched by an armed citizen, the message would get out that crime is just a quick way to book passage over the river Styx. The police may or may not catch the robber of the local convenience store, but a dead robber is a case closed.

We must take back our communities from those who would do violence - those are true criminals.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Right now the cost of carrying concealed is fifty dollars. Should this bill become law, concealed carry would come at the cost of two of my most precious civil rights. I wouldn't really call those "perks."

The requirement to notify "as soon as practicable" is entirely vague, and gives the officer absolute discretion over whether or not to charge you with a Class 1 misdemeanor. If the officer starts with a long explanation about why you're being detained, and you wait until he's finished to tell him about your concealed handgun, are you in violation? Was it "practicable" to interrupt him? If he doesn't like you, or the fact that you carry, you can bet on it.

This isn't a merely theoretical problem, either. In Ohio, which requires permit holders to notify "promptly", a man named Bryan L. was confronted by an officer who ordered him out of his vehicle at gunpoint (actually a taser, but he didn't know that at the time). After he complied with their orders, he told them about his permit and the guns stored in his car, whereupon they searched his car repeatedly, looking for evidence of wrongdoing. After finding none, the officers actively discussed whether there might be some charge they could lay against this "loser." They eventually settled on failing to inform, because, according to the charging document, he gave notice 51 seconds after he was first accosted. He was never charged with any other crime, and was eventually acquitted, after being dragged through a vicious trial.

The requirement to submit to a warrantless, suspicionless seizure is likewise intolerable. A law enforcement officer already has broad authority to seize weapons in circumstances where he reasonably fears for his safety. This bill specifically authorizes officers to seize my handgun for any reason whatsoever, or for none at all, except that the law says he can.

The seizure of a handgun where there is no specific threat from the carrier does not improve safety -- quite the contrary, it makes it worse! Handling a gun unnecessarily introduces the risk of a negligent discharge, and leave the citizen defenseless. Charlie Mitchener, a Las Vegas business owner, called police early one morning to report a break-in at his workplace. When he told the responding officer about his permit, she cuffed him, confiscated his gun, and went outside to stow it in her vehicle, leaving Mr. Mitchener alone and defenseless in a building that had not yet been cleared.

I can't support a bill with such awful intrusions on my liberty, and I can't fathom why they keep cropping up in so-called "Constitutional" carry legislation. I would gladly support the bill if they were removed.

I now agree with this position.
 

WhatTimeIsIt?

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
188
Location
$
This change would not make the law any less unconstitutional than it is now. It denies the right to remain silent and gives the police too much discretion and authority. On the other hand, permission slips are not constitutional either. I'm neutral on this bill. The real solution is, of course, to repeal the law entirely.
 

peter nap

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Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
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Valhalla
This change would not make the law any less unconstitutional than it is now. It denies the right to remain silent and gives the police too much discretion and authority. On the other hand, permission slips are not constitutional either. I'm neutral on this bill. The real solution is, of course, to repeal the law entirely.

I'm slightly north of neutral. This is a good first step and yes just repealing the current statute is the best solution. Unfortunately, it won't happen or at least all at once.

It's amusing and aggravating at the same time to hear the chippers cry about losing rights, but applaud bills that give them addition privileges over OC'ers.

It reminds me of the Coal Companies in the mountains. They talk about their right to mine land they own, but pollute the ground water for everyone around.
 

2a4all

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,846
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
I don't see where this change to the law only applies to CHP holders. It appears that if this law is passed, Virginia will become a "shall notify" state.:(

Speaking of CHP holders, I couldn't find any exeception(s) in the current 18.2-308 for carry by those (plain ordinary) folks (of whom I'm one). What did I miss?:eek:

ETA: I missed the fact that the necessary exception(s) are listed in § 18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.:banghead:
 
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