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Thread: CCW Permit Denied, Filled Appeal, thoughts??

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    CCW Permit Denied, Filled Appeal, thoughts??

    So I called in today and they told me my permit was denied (it's been 100 days) because of my arrest for harassment (which we all know is domestic violence) in 2004 against my ex-wife the case was ultimately dismissed by the DA in 2006. I cleared the CBI background check and was able to buy a firearm legally in October of 2010. I made a mistake and let my temper get the best of me, but that was several years ago, I hold no ill feelings towards my ex-spouse, the police department, or anything like that. I was upset, thought my wife was cheating on me and left a threatening voicemail. That’s it, I never touched her or intended harm towards her, my temper got the best of me and I have learned from my mistake.

    I went down to the sheriff’s department today to file an appeal in which in a letter I explained the charge against me, explained that I made a mistake, the case was dismissed, that I have had no issues with law enforcement since then, as well I am currently a graduate student working on my Master’s degree in Criminology (in which I have a GPA of 3.83) in hopes to work law enforcement when I finish school one year from now. I pointed out that I am a law adding citizen who wants to carry a firearm to protect myself and loved one and that I avid ‘open carry’ but would like to carry conceal to ease the mind of the public after the events that unfolded in our beloved country almost one week ago. I provided a copy of my transcripts, the court disposition, and the letter explaining everything.

    I was wondering what your thoughts are about me winning my formal appeal are, I feel that my rights to carry concealed are based on something that I was never convicted for, I accepted a plea bargain and the case was dismissed which means I have an arrest record but no criminal record. I was able to legally buy a firearm and that I am a law abiding citizen, if I did not respect the law I wouldn’t have gone through the legal means to carry nor would I be working on my Master’s degree in it. Criminals don’t follow the law, I have followed them to carry concealed. If I get denied I might hire a lawyer to try and obtain my permit, I am not sure yet it all depends on how this appeal goes. Thoughts?



    UPDATE:
    Feb. 3 2011
    I won my appeal!
    Last edited by strife1013; 02-03-2011 at 04:48 PM. Reason: UPDATE!!!

  2. #2
    Regular Member Lokster's Avatar
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    I don't know anyone who has had to go through the appeal process so I can't speak to that, but from what you say it doesn't sound like you'd be a menace to society by carrying your firearm legally concealed.

    Best of luck to ya!

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    Regular Member entartet17's Avatar
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    If the case was dismissed, then you should be fine. Just go through the appeals process and the decision should be reversed. CBI often denies firearm purchases based on arrest records (though this doesnt apply to you since you were able to buy a firearm). Permits are sometimes denied for similar reasons. What matters is that you were not convicted of a crime.
    Last edited by entartet17; 01-13-2011 at 05:49 PM.
    "There are those who still think they are holding the pass against a revolution that may be coming up the road. But they are gazing in the wrong direction. The revolution is behind them. It went by in the Night of Depression, singing songs of freedom" -- Garet Garrett, The Revolution Was (1938)

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    You accepted a plea bargain. Were the charges dismissed as part of it, or was it only a reduced sentence like probation? If dismissed, you have a good case on appeal. If not, you have zero chance. Still, each sheriff has different views on cases of DA either violence or the threat thereof. Having letters of support wouldn't hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    You accepted a plea bargain. Were the charges dismissed as part of it, or was it only a reduced sentence like probation? If dismissed, you have a good case on appeal. If not, you have zero chance. Still, each sheriff has different views on cases of DA either violence or the threat thereof. Having letters of support wouldn't hurt.
    As part of my plea bargain as long as I completed 36 weeks of DV classes, pay all court costs and stay "good" in the eyes of the law the case would be dismissed and so it was dismissed in 2006. It was a deferred sentence. Does that makes sense?

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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    If your case was dismissed you should be successful with your second review.

    I suspect the DV case -even though dismissed via deferred adjudication -activated a "trip-wire" at the the Sheriff's Office. You have a burden of proof to establish with the Sheriff, because CO law allows him some discretion. If you have not already done so - get busy asking aquaintances for written character references with commentaries, and request a personal meeting preferably with Sheriff Maketa to present your case. The Sheriff will want to see some evidence that your DV issues are completely resolved.

    I have had some experience with the 2nd review CHP process in El Paso County. The Sheriff has to sign off on your CHP - so he has every right to expect you to present him with solid assurance that the problem is solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rushcreek2 View Post
    If your case was dismissed you should be successful with your second review.

    I suspect the DV case -even though dismissed via deferred adjudication -activated a "trip-wire" at the the Sheriff's Office. You have a burden of proof to establish with the Sheriff, because CO law allows him some discretion. If you have not already done so - get busy asking aquaintances for written character references with commentaries, and request a personal meeting preferably with Sheriff Maketa to present your case. The Sheriff will want to see some evidence that your DV issues are completely resolved.

    I have had some experience with the 2nd review CHP process in El Paso County. The Sheriff has to sign off on your CHP - so he has every right to expect you to present him with solid assurance that the problem is solved.
    So it was not the Sheriff that denied it but someone else? I thought it was the Sheriff that signed off on all the permits, I suppose I could request with the Sheriff and see where that goes. How would I go about that?

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    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    So how do you go through an appeal? They only give you a very short window to do this, btw. Has anyone ever been successful with appealing a few months after a denial?

    I've been meaning to try and meet with Maketa in person, since he's ignored my letters. But I wonder if he has the power to grant me my CHP if persuaded. Or if the new mayor would be able to in April. Or Hickenlooper. Or anyone else. Lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo View Post
    So how do you go through an appeal? They only give you a very short window to do this, btw. Has anyone ever been successful with appealing a few months after a denial?

    I've been meaning to try and meet with Maketa in person, since he's ignored my letters. But I wonder if he has the power to grant me my CHP if persuaded. Or if the new mayor would be able to in April. Or Hickenlooper. Or anyone else. Lol.
    Was your CCW denied as well? I don't know how long you have to appeal it, I just got all my paperwork together and went in there that day to drop it off in person so that I know someone from that department got my documents, I was told they don't know how long it would take. I figure a month I guess.

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    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    I'm pretty disgusted with the lac of attentiveness to the process. I was totally jipped.

    I have a felony arrest on my record with no conviction, since I went through a huge ordeal in court and had the thing dropped and ended up with just a misdemeanor:battery (which isn't accurate--I never 'hit' or etc. anyone; that's just what I ended up with in plea bargain).

    CBI wanted to know what the arrest was for. So I told them about it all, sent them court minutes, I had to jump through all sorts of hoops with them with affidavits and what-not, and then I was denied ... because of the misdemeanor. Which I was never guilty of in the first place. If they actually looked at all the crap I had to send them, they would have known that.

    Go to all the work, jump through all the hoops, then some ******** bureaucrat has a knee-jerk reaction to something totally out of context, as if they never even looked at everything they asked me for.

    And now that enough time has passed that I'm sealing the record (in the process of that now), I'm probably screwed from trying again, because even though there will soon be NO record on me, they still have all that crap I sent them up at CBI.

    I sent letters to Maketa's under-sheriff (who sent me the denial) and to Maketa himself, and was ignored.

    I sent another letter to Maketa, and all he sent back was an impersonal letter citing a law that basically says the sheriff can deny a permit based on whatever reason they want. Nothing more. No signature.

    There is no justice when we must bribe and beg for our rights, since we were stupid and lazy enough to let them be taken away.

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    "citing a law that basically says the sheriff can deny a permit based on whatever reason they want."

    And they call this a "shall issue" State. Thanks NRA.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Applicable code

    Read more, here.

    18-12-203 states: "(2) Regardless of whether an applicant meets the criteria specified in subsection (1) of this section, if the sheriff has a reasonable belief that documented previous behavior by the applicant makes it likely the applicant will present a danger to self or others if the applicant receives a permit to carry a concealed handgun, the sheriff may deny the permit."

    This seems to give the sheriff carte banche to deny whenever he feels like it but I would disagree. The key word here is "likely." Whether or not what happpened with you qualifies as "likely" would be matter of judgement. I might think so, but I'm not sheriff, so...

    I wish you the best of luck in your appeal.

    In the meantime, just open carry. Thankfully, you don't need a permit for that!
    Last edited by since9; 01-15-2011 at 11:51 PM.
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    Thanks for all the replies. It didn't cost me anything to appeal it so I'll at least try that.

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    In 2008, when my permit was coming up for renewal, I decided to go buy another handgun, so went to SW in Thornton, where I had made purchases in the past. I picked a new Kimber, and my 4473 came back as delayed......weird. Never had that happen in the past.
    3 days later, I was denied and had to do all the appeal stuff as well.
    In addition, my current permit became null and void.
    Turns out that it was an issue from 1980 when I was 15 years old.
    I petitioned the court, got the juvenile record expunged, and then went and had a one on one meeting with Sheriff Darr in Adams County.
    The other FFL that I had been purchasing stuff from before she moved to Custer, SD looked up and printed copies of all the approved 4473's from the past. I took all that stuff and more to the meeting and walked out an hour later with my new permit. Took me a total about 3 months to get everything done.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strife1013 View Post
    As part of my plea bargain as long as I completed 36 weeks of DV classes, pay all court costs and stay "good" in the eyes of the law the case would be dismissed and so it was dismissed in 2006. It was a deferred sentence. Does that makes sense?
    Perfect sense. You should be able to win on appeal. Your next step is to get your record expunged. Simple motion to the court--and your good behavior since, will do it.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo View Post
    So how do you go through an appeal? They only give you a very short window to do this, btw. Has anyone ever been successful with appealing a few months after a denial?

    I've been meaning to try and meet with Maketa in person, since he's ignored my letters. But I wonder if he has the power to grant me my CHP if persuaded. Or if the new mayor would be able to in April. Or Hickenlooper. Or anyone else. Lol.
    Only Terry can do it. As he is one of the most pro-2A lawmen in the country, a well reasoned approach should work with him.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass View Post
    "citing a law that basically says the sheriff can deny a permit based on whatever reason they want."

    And they call this a "shall issue" State. Thanks NRA.
    That is incorrect. There are only a few, very specific reasons a CCW can be denied. CO is a shall issue state--and particularly El Paso County. There has to be more to it than this.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Read more, here.

    18-12-203 states: "(2) Regardless of whether an applicant meets the criteria specified in subsection (1) of this section, if the sheriff has a reasonable belief that documented previous behavior by the applicant makes it likely the applicant will present a danger to self or others if the applicant receives a permit to carry a concealed handgun, the sheriff may deny the permit."

    This seems to give the sheriff carte banche to deny whenever he feels like it but I would disagree. The key word here is "likely." Whether or not what happpened with you qualifies as "likely" would be matter of judgement. I might think so, but I'm not sheriff, so...

    I wish you the best of luck in your appeal.

    In the meantime, just open carry. Thankfully, you don't need a permit for that!
    While true, when "reasonable" enters the game the burden shifts to the sheriff who denied the permit to demonstrate the 'reasonableness' of the denial. That is what an appeal is for. Shall issue has a much tighter limit as to what can prevent the issue of the CCW. If all of the facts are as stated, #1 I'm amazed at the denial in EP County: #2, the appeal should be successful. Will be interested in what happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Perfect sense. You should be able to win on appeal. Your next step is to get your record expunged. Simple motion to the court--and your good behavior since, will do it.
    If you mean getting my records sealed I have thought of that, it would cost a lawyer about $1000 to do that. However the problem with that is that gov't and law enforcement can still pull up that record which does nothing really accept making employers who are non-federal/law enforcement not being able to see that arrest.
    Last edited by strife1013; 01-16-2011 at 07:47 PM.

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    I have worked on several similar cases of DV arrests and spoken to the RMGO on this.

    Since the case was dismissed, whether it was Deferred Prosecution or whatever reason, it was dismissed. The Sheriffs have no latitude in not giving you a CCW based on any arrest, only prosecution.

    One of the posters here is right, since they show the arrest and the forced restraining order, you are in the systme until you try to get it removed. Make sure your record is sealed (doesnt really matter for law enforcement) and deal with CBI to make sure they show the dismissal.

    You WILL win on appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by strife1013 View Post
    As part of my plea bargain as long as I completed 36 weeks of DV classes, pay all court costs and stay "good" in the eyes of the law the case would be dismissed and so it was dismissed in 2006. It was a deferred sentence. Does that makes sense?

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    The deferred sentence process includes probation but is not a RECORDED plea bargain. It means that as long as he stayed clean for a year they would not sentence him but that if something did happen, they have a guilty plea on record that will only be entered if he doesn't go through probation.

    Once its dismissed its completely dismissed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    You accepted a plea bargain. Were the charges dismissed as part of it, or was it only a reduced sentence like probation? If dismissed, you have a good case on appeal. If not, you have zero chance. Still, each sheriff has different views on cases of DA either violence or the threat thereof. Having letters of support wouldn't hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pace View Post
    I have worked on several similar cases of DV arrests and spoken to the RMGO on this.

    Since the case was dismissed, whether it was Deferred Prosecution or whatever reason, it was dismissed. The Sheriffs have no latitude in not giving you a CCW based on any arrest, only prosecution.

    One of the posters here is right, since they show the arrest and the forced restraining order, you are in the systme until you try to get it removed. Make sure your record is sealed (doesnt really matter for law enforcement) and deal with CBI to make sure they show the dismissal.

    You WILL win on appeal.
    I'm sure CBI shows that it was dismissed because I was able to buy a gun. I have a strong feeling that my appeal will go in my favor, I am unsure if the case was showed as dismissed when they reviewed it which is why I included a copy of the court documents and all that jazz in hopes that they will see it the way you do. I feel like I am being found guilty for something the courts said I didn't do even though I was sort of guilty... DV is a stupid law, you can go to jail for anything with the current system on DV.

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    the dv laws are worse than that, they are unconstitutional. They require arrest based on any complaint (including an anonymous 911 call) and then require prosecution by law. Only a judge can dismiss it.

    Quote Originally Posted by strife1013 View Post
    I'm sure CBI shows that it was dismissed because I was able to buy a gun. I have a strong feeling that my appeal will go in my favor, I am unsure if the case was showed as dismissed when they reviewed it which is why I included a copy of the court documents and all that jazz in hopes that they will see it the way you do. I feel like I am being found guilty for something the courts said I didn't do even though I was sort of guilty... DV is a stupid law, you can go to jail for anything with the current system on DV.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strife1013 View Post
    If you mean getting my records sealed I have thought of that, it would cost a lawyer about $1000 to do that. However the problem with that is that gov't and law enforcement can still pull up that record which does nothing really accept making employers who are non-federal/law enforcement not being able to see that arrest.
    You can do it yourself for a few bucks--whatever the filing charge is. It is only a simple motion. There are forms available at the Clerk of the Court. Once expunged, it is gone. It is not available to cops without a court order, despite urban myth to the contrary, unless you are applying for a "position of trust," e.g., security clearance, in which case you have to mention it.

    In the United States, criminal records may be expunged, though laws vary by state. Many types of offenses may be expunged, ranging from parking fines to felonies. In general, once sealed or expunged, all records of an arrest and/or subsequent court case are removed from the public record, and the individual may legally deny or fail to acknowledge ever having been arrested for or charged with any crime which has been expunged.
    Last edited by Gunslinger; 01-17-2011 at 01:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    You can do it yourself for a few bucks--whatever the filing charge is. It is only a simple motion. There are forms available at the Clerk of the Court. Once expunged, it is gone. It is not available to cops without a court order, despite urban myth to the contrary, unless you are applying for a "position of trust," e.g., security clearance, in which case you have to mention it.

    In the United States, criminal records may be expunged, though laws vary by state. Many types of offenses may be expunged, ranging from parking fines to felonies. In general, once sealed or expunged, all records of an arrest and/or subsequent court case are removed from the public record, and the individual may legally deny or fail to acknowledge ever having been arrested for or charged with any crime which has been expunged.
    Ya, maybe I'll have to look into this.... and do it myself as lawyers cost a ton of money. Thanks for the information.

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