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Thread: Rep Wimmer to carry Constitutional Carry Bill 2011 legislature

  1. #1
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    Rep Wimmer to carry Constitutional Carry Bill 2011 legislature

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...ut-permit.html

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51...apons.html.csp


    To be clear, the bill will NOT alter Utah's CCW permit nor permit process. It will not alter who can legally buy, own or possess a firearm. It will simply eliminate criminal penalties for carrying (loaded and/or concealed) without having a permit.

    Excerpt from the articles:

    Rep. Carl Wimmer, R-Herriman, is having a bill drafted that would allow gun owners to carry a concealed, loaded gun almost anywhere in the state — essentially doing away with Utah’s long-standing concealed weapons permit process.

    “It allows law-abiding citizens of Utah to carry a firearm for their own personal self-protection with or without a concealed-weapons permit,” Wimmer said Wednesday.

    Three states currently have a “constitutional carry” law: Vermont, Alaska and Arizona, which passed the measure last year.

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    Regular Member NewZealandAmerican's Avatar
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    out of state visitors compared to Arizona, Vermont & Alaska

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...ut-permit.html

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51...apons.html.csp


    To be clear, the bill will NOT alter Utah's CCW permit nor permit process. It will not alter who can legally buy, own or possess a firearm. It will simply eliminate criminal penalties for carrying (loaded and/or concealed) without having a permit.

    Excerpt from the articles:

    Rep. Carl Wimmer, R-Herriman, is having a bill drafted that would allow gun owners to carry a concealed, loaded gun almost anywhere in the state — essentially doing away with Utah’s long-standing concealed weapons permit process.

    “It allows law-abiding citizens of Utah to carry a firearm for their own personal self-protection with or without a concealed-weapons permit,” Wimmer said Wednesday.

    Three states currently have a “constitutional carry” law: Vermont, Alaska and Arizona, which passed the measure last year.
    If i'm reading correctly, compared to Arizona, Vermont and Alaska visitors to Utah will (NOT) be able to carry concealed without a permit in Utah unlike the first 3 states who allow vistors from out of state to carry concealed without a permit when this bill becomes law.
    Last edited by NewZealandAmerican; 01-15-2011 at 02:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewZealandAmerican View Post
    If i'm reading correctly, compared to Arizona, Vermont and Alaska visitors to Utah will (NOT) be able to carry concealed without a permit in Utah unlike the first 3 states who allow vistors from out of state to carry concealed without a permit when this bill becomes law.
    That is NOT my take on the proposal as I understand the intent. Qualifier here--- text of proposed legislation has not actually been released to the public nor have I read it.

    BUT, but once the penalty is removed ALL legal gun carriers will have the same status as current concealed permit carriers in UTAH.... ABLE TO CONCEAL WITHOUT LEGAL REPERCUSSION IF THEY DESIRE anywhere it is legal to carry a firearm in the state.

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    Unhappy Federal Gun Free School Zones -

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    That is NOT my take on the proposal as I understand the intent. Qualifier here--- text of proposed legislation has not actually been released to the public nor have I read it.

    BUT, but once the penalty is removed ALL legal gun carriers will have the same status as current concealed permit carriers in UTAH.... ABLE TO CONCEAL WITHOUT LEGAL REPERCUSSION IF THEY DESIRE anywhere it is legal to carry a firearm in the state.
    Good point Joe, but I have another concern about "Constitutional Carry". It concerns the concept of "anywhere it is legal to carry a firearm in Utah".

    The Federal Gun Free School Zone statutes make it clear that the States can only nullify the school grounds + 1000 feet zone if and only if they issue a permit that is based on a background check. The Utah Legislature can waive the State's GFSZ for Utah Citizens (or any Citizens), but not the Federal Statute. Thus, this legislation could unwittingly make Federal felons out of otherwise law abiding citizens who wish to "Constitutionally Carry" unless they also have a Concealed Firearm Permit issued by Utah (or perhaps a State recognized by Utah and that was issued following a background check). In Urban Areas it is really hard to know where all the Federal GFSZ areas are (the current problem for the open carry public who do not have a permit).
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Regular Member Michael Hopkins's Avatar
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    Chance to pass?

    Hello all;
    Deferring to those of you who have greater knowledge of Utah and its culture in general...Was just wondering what you may think of the chances for this bill to become law? 50/50? Better? Worse? I think it's probably about 85/15 to pass, but that's just me.
    Just saw a moment ago in a news ticker that the WY Constitutional Carry bill is in committee, so they're moving forward as well.
    Thoughts?

    Thanks!
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    Thus, this legislation could unwittingly make Federal felons out of otherwise law abiding citizens who wish to "Constitutionally Carry" unless they also have a Concealed Firearm Permit issued by Utah
    No, the legislation will not "unwittingly make Federal felons out of otherwise law abiding citizens". Removing the State restrictions on carrying a gun (concealed and/or loaded) without a permit will do no such thing. Nor does retaining the State law in any way prevent those who violate the federal GFSZ law from being charged with a federal crime.

    The opposite is also true. The federal GFSZ law includes only K-12 schools. Utah's law includes preschools and colleges. Carrying onto a college campus without a permit and the feds have no interest, but the State of Utah does.

    Just as is true today, it will be incumbent upon each person who chooses to carry a gun to be aware of all applicable laws: State and federal. Fortunately, with State preemption, we don't have any local laws to deal with. But in some other States that is not true and the gun carrier must be aware of federal, State, and local laws.

    Charles

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    I actually wrote Rep. Wimmer about a week and a half ago about the GFSZ and constitutional carry, like you guys are talking about. I haven't heard back from him.. and from what I hear from other people who have written to him, I'm not likely to.

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    What is happening with modifying the Disorderly Conduct, Disturbing the Peace, Disrupting, etc sections being modified to specify that open carrying without other actions is not a violation.

    They tried a last minute fix for part of it late last session which failed mostly because it came up too late, but I don't see anything this year on the subject. I thought USSC was supposed to be working on getting this done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    unless they also have a Concealed Firearm Permit issued by Utah (or perhaps a State recognized by Utah and that was issued following a background check). In Urban Areas it is really hard to know where all the Federal GFSZ areas are (the current problem for the open carry public who do not have a permit).
    One other thing to point out is that the federal GFSZ law only authorizes those who have a permit that is issued to them from the state that the school zone is in.

    Title 18 U.S.C §922(q)
    "does not apply to the possession of a firearm... (amended) ...if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;"


    So even though Idaho recognizes my Utah CFP the federal governmet still restricts me from entering a school zone in Idaho unless Idaho has also issued me a permit.
    Last edited by cdrhoad; 01-26-2011 at 01:02 AM.

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    Here is a way to get around the federal gun free school zones.

    Montana Code Annotated

    45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the
    right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in
    Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not
    been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or
    to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be
    individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the
    meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in
    the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max View Post
    Here is a way to get around the federal gun free school zones.

    Montana Code Annotated

    45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the
    right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in
    Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not
    been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or
    to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be
    individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the
    meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in
    the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act.
    It's so crazy, it might just work. Thanks for posting the above annotated code.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdrhoad View Post
    One other thing to point out is that the federal GFSZ law only authorizes those who have a permit that is issued to them from the state that the school zone is in.

    Title 18 U.S.C §922(q)
    "does not apply to the possession of a firearm... (amended) ...if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;"


    So even though Idaho recognizes my Utah CFP the federal governmet still restricts me from entering a school zone in Idaho unless Idaho has also issued me a permit.
    That's not quite correct.

    Rather, it's true as far as it goes, but it doesn't go quite far enough.

    You quoted 18 USC 922(q)(2)(A)(ii), but (ii) is part of a list of exception, and there's another exception that I think the Utah legislature could make applicable. I'm afraid Montana's approach of declaring everyone as licensed may fail due to the portion of (ii) that I bolded above. Sub-subparagraph (iv) of 922(q)(2)(B), however, contains no such individual verification requirement. It states that the restriction on carry "does not apply to the possession of a firearm—"

    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
    If the schools were to create and approve a "Keep our schools safe" program that authorizes any person who lawfully possesses a firearm to possess it in school zones in order to protect school children from violence, then this exception to the law would cover everyone, with or without a permit.

    Sam Fidler presented this idea to Curt Oda at the Browning Day event and Oda responded that the state legislature has no authority to direct the school districts to establish such a program. If true, then this idea is mostly useless, since it would be necessary to convince each school district in the state. But it seems odd to me that the legislature, who organizes and funds public education in the state has no authority to direct the school districts.

    I'm not suggesting that this item be added to this year's legislative agenda. I think there's quite enough on the pro-gun legislators' plates this year. But I would like to see it explored, to determine if it's legally and politically feasible for a future year.

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    You are correct Swillden. I did omit that portion and have been following the related posts on the other forum. I felt it was important that it was understood that the school zone law still pertains to a non resident permit holder (not just Utah non-res) is still subject to the federal law in other states the recognize the non-res permit. Unless that individual has authorization from the school district.

    A interesting side note about that. I believe there was some Utah legislation that went through a while ago about allowing firearms safety training being allowed in schools or school programs, but none of the districts have done anything about it. I think some further investigation into this situation may help us to understand why Rep Oda was implying that legislature didn't have that authority. I will start a new thread if I find anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swillden View Post
    Sam Fidler presented this idea to Curt Oda at the Browning Day event and Oda responded that the state legislature has no authority to direct the school districts to establish such a program. If true, then this idea is mostly useless, since it would be necessary to convince each school district in the state. But it seems odd to me that the legislature, who organizes and funds public education in the state has no authority to direct the school districts.
    If Buttars proposed amendment to the Utah Constitution passes, the legislature will have the authority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpyne View Post
    If Buttars proposed amendment to the Utah Constitution passes, the legislature will have the authority.
    What amendment is that?

    EDIT: NM, I found it: http://www.utahpolicy.com/featured_a...over-public-ed
    Last edited by swillden; 01-27-2011 at 10:09 AM.

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    The text of the proposed amendment is here:

    http://le.utah.gov/~2011/bills/sbillint/sjr001.htm

    It is simple and straight forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpyne View Post
    The text of the proposed amendment is here:

    http://le.utah.gov/~2011/bills/sbillint/sjr001.htm

    It is simple and straight forward.
    Indeed it is... it adds four words to the Constitution "as provided by statute". This also makes clear why the legislature presently doesn't have the authority to tell schools what to do -- the Utah Constitution vests that authority in the state board of education. I should have known that.

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    Ok I saw this on KSL today as many of you might have.

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=14166002

    I see they want to lower the price of the CCP but I am not seeing or heard anything about the state passing the law to be able to conceal carry with out permit. Anyone know what happened to that????
    ”The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world… The first step – in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come – is to teach men to shoot!”
    ~President Theodore Roosevelt

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    The bill is still being drafted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpyne View Post
    The bill is still being drafted.
    will it be in this session any Idea?
    ”The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world… The first step – in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come – is to teach men to shoot!”
    ~President Theodore Roosevelt

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    Quote Originally Posted by yo101jimmy View Post
    will it be in this session any Idea?
    That is what he has planned.

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    Regular Member Michael Hopkins's Avatar
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    Hb0129

    The Constitutional Carry Bill ( as we know it ) received the number HB0129 this past Saturday (2/5/11). It currently contains no text, but at least it's moving.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max View Post
    Here is a way to get around the federal gun free school zones.

    Montana Code Annotated

    45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the
    right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in
    Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not
    been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or
    to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be
    individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the
    meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in
    the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act.
    A bill (HB2392) has been introduced in to the Arizona Legislature that models this. Fed GFSZs are of no consequence here, as they are not enforced by AZ agencies. This is meant to keep the feds in their place.


    http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....ls/hb2392p.htm

    AN ACT
    amending title 13, chapter 31, Arizona Revised Statutes, by adding section 13-3121; relating to firearms.


    Be it enacted by the Legislature of the State of Arizona:

    Section 1. Title 13, chapter 31, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended by adding section 13-3121, to read:

    START_STATUTE13-3121. Firearm possession; outside the grounds of a school

    For the purposes of 18 United States Code section 922, a person who lawfully owns or possesses a firearm pursuant to the constitution and laws of this state is considered by this state to be individually licensed and verified to possess a firearm immediately outside the grounds of a school.

    END_STATUTE

  24. #24
    Regular Member Michael Hopkins's Avatar
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    HB 0129 Text

    Hello all;
    Here's the latest revision as posted on the UT legislature site.


    H.B. 129

    1

    FIREARMS MODIFICATIONS
    2
    2011 GENERAL SESSION

    3
    STATE OF UTAH

    4
    Chief Sponsor: Carl Wimmer
    5
    Senate Sponsor: ____________

    6
    7 LONG TITLE
    8 General Description:
    9 This bill amends provisions of Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, related to conduct
    10 involving firearms.
    11 Highlighted Provisions:
    12 This bill:
    13 . provides an exemption for a person, who is 21 years of age or older and who may
    14 lawfully possess a dangerous weapon, from certain criminal provisions in Title 76,
    15 Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, related to the carrying of a dangerous weapon.
    16 Money Appropriated in this Bill:
    17 None
    18 Other Special Clauses:
    19 None
    20 Utah Code Sections Affected:
    21 AMENDS:
    22 76-10-505.5, as last amended by Laws of Utah 2003, Chapter 203
    23 76-10-523, as last amended by Laws of Utah 2009, Chapter 362
    24
    25 Be it enacted by the Legislature of the state of Utah:
    26 Section 1. Section 76-10-505.5 is amended to read:
    27 76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on
    28 or about school premises -- Penalties.
    29 (1) A person may not possess [any] a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off
    30 shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501 , at a place that the person knows, or
    31 has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection
    32 76-3-203.2 (1).
    33 (2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B
    34 misdemeanor.
    35 (b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class
    36 A misdemeanor.
    37 (3) This section does not apply if:
    38 (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704 ,
    39 53-5-705 , 76-10-511 , or Subsection 76-10-523 (1) or (2), or as otherwise authorized by law;
    40 (b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
    41 (c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and
    42 is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
    43 (d) the possession is:
    44 (i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
    45 (ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by
    46 the school or used by the school to transport students; or
    47 (iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in
    48 Subsection 76-3-203.2 (1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
    49 (4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that
    50 may occur on or about school premises.
    51 Section 2. Section 76-10-523 is amended to read:
    52 76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws.
    53 (1) This part and Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed [Weapon] Firearm Act, do not
    54 apply to any of the following:
    55 (a) a United States marshal;
    56 (b) a federal official required to carry a firearm;
    57 (c) a peace officer of this or any other jurisdiction;
    58 (d) a law enforcement official as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711 ;
    59 (e) a judge as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711 ;
    60 (f) a common carrier while engaged in the regular and ordinary transport of firearms as
    61 merchandise; or
    62 (g) a nonresident traveling in or through the state, provided that any firearm is:
    63 (i) unloaded; and
    64 (ii) securely encased as defined in Section 76-10-501 .
    65 (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504 (1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not
    66 apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
    67 (a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704 ; or
    68 (b) by another state or county.
    69 (3) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504 (1) and (2) and Section 76-10-505 do not
    70 apply to a person 21 years of age or older who may lawfully possess a dangerous weapon.




    Legislative Review Note
    as of 2-14-11 3:26 PM

    Office of Legislative Research and General Counsel

    Lines 69 and 70 seem to show what would be "Constitutional Carry." Obviously, this still maintains the not-on-school premises provision, as enumerated on lines 25-50.

    Take a look;
    Mike
    When I told you you needed to trouble-shoot your PC, I didn't mean load it with .45 lead when Windows blew up again.

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    I would like to see on line 70 "21 years of age" taken out... but that's just wishfull thinkining. It will be interesting to see how that lawsuit in Texas plays out.

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