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Rep Wimmer to carry Constitutional Carry Bill 2011 legislature

utbagpiper

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http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700100439/Utah-lawmaker-Guns-should-be-legal-without-permit.html

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51038808-76/permit-concealed-utah-weapons.html.csp


To be clear, the bill will NOT alter Utah's CCW permit nor permit process. It will not alter who can legally buy, own or possess a firearm. It will simply eliminate criminal penalties for carrying (loaded and/or concealed) without having a permit.

Excerpt from the articles:

Rep. Carl Wimmer, R-Herriman, is having a bill drafted that would allow gun owners to carry a concealed, loaded gun almost anywhere in the state — essentially doing away with Utah’s long-standing concealed weapons permit process.

“It allows law-abiding citizens of Utah to carry a firearm for their own personal self-protection with or without a concealed-weapons permit,” Wimmer said Wednesday.

Three states currently have a “constitutional carry” law: Vermont, Alaska and Arizona, which passed the measure last year.
 

NewZealandAmerican

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out of state visitors compared to Arizona, Vermont & Alaska

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700100439/Utah-lawmaker-Guns-should-be-legal-without-permit.html

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51038808-76/permit-concealed-utah-weapons.html.csp


To be clear, the bill will NOT alter Utah's CCW permit nor permit process. It will not alter who can legally buy, own or possess a firearm. It will simply eliminate criminal penalties for carrying (loaded and/or concealed) without having a permit.

Excerpt from the articles:

Rep. Carl Wimmer, R-Herriman, is having a bill drafted that would allow gun owners to carry a concealed, loaded gun almost anywhere in the state — essentially doing away with Utah’s long-standing concealed weapons permit process.

“It allows law-abiding citizens of Utah to carry a firearm for their own personal self-protection with or without a concealed-weapons permit,” Wimmer said Wednesday.

Three states currently have a “constitutional carry” law: Vermont, Alaska and Arizona, which passed the measure last year.

If i'm reading correctly, compared to Arizona, Vermont and Alaska visitors to Utah will (NOT) be able to carry concealed without a permit in Utah unlike the first 3 states who allow vistors from out of state to carry concealed without a permit when this bill becomes law.
 
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JoeSparky

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If i'm reading correctly, compared to Arizona, Vermont and Alaska visitors to Utah will (NOT) be able to carry concealed without a permit in Utah unlike the first 3 states who allow vistors from out of state to carry concealed without a permit when this bill becomes law.
That is NOT my take on the proposal as I understand the intent. Qualifier here--- text of proposed legislation has not actually been released to the public nor have I read it.

BUT, but once the penalty is removed ALL legal gun carriers will have the same status as current concealed permit carriers in UTAH.... ABLE TO CONCEAL WITHOUT LEGAL REPERCUSSION IF THEY DESIRE anywhere it is legal to carry a firearm in the state.
 

jpm84092

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Federal Gun Free School Zones -

That is NOT my take on the proposal as I understand the intent. Qualifier here--- text of proposed legislation has not actually been released to the public nor have I read it.

BUT, but once the penalty is removed ALL legal gun carriers will have the same status as current concealed permit carriers in UTAH.... ABLE TO CONCEAL WITHOUT LEGAL REPERCUSSION IF THEY DESIRE anywhere it is legal to carry a firearm in the state.

Good point Joe, but I have another concern about "Constitutional Carry". It concerns the concept of "anywhere it is legal to carry a firearm in Utah".

The Federal Gun Free School Zone statutes make it clear that the States can only nullify the school grounds + 1000 feet zone if and only if they issue a permit that is based on a background check. The Utah Legislature can waive the State's GFSZ for Utah Citizens (or any Citizens), but not the Federal Statute. Thus, this legislation could unwittingly make Federal felons out of otherwise law abiding citizens who wish to "Constitutionally Carry" unless they also have a Concealed Firearm Permit issued by Utah (or perhaps a State recognized by Utah and that was issued following a background check). In Urban Areas it is really hard to know where all the Federal GFSZ areas are (the current problem for the open carry public who do not have a permit).
 

Michael Hopkins

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Chance to pass?

Hello all;
Deferring to those of you who have greater knowledge of Utah and its culture in general...Was just wondering what you may think of the chances for this bill to become law? 50/50? Better? Worse? I think it's probably about 85/15 to pass, but that's just me.
Just saw a moment ago in a news ticker that the WY Constitutional Carry bill is in committee, so they're moving forward as well.
Thoughts?

Thanks!
Mike :dude:
 

utbagpiper

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Thus, this legislation could unwittingly make Federal felons out of otherwise law abiding citizens who wish to "Constitutionally Carry" unless they also have a Concealed Firearm Permit issued by Utah

No, the legislation will not "unwittingly make Federal felons out of otherwise law abiding citizens". Removing the State restrictions on carrying a gun (concealed and/or loaded) without a permit will do no such thing. Nor does retaining the State law in any way prevent those who violate the federal GFSZ law from being charged with a federal crime.

The opposite is also true. The federal GFSZ law includes only K-12 schools. Utah's law includes preschools and colleges. Carrying onto a college campus without a permit and the feds have no interest, but the State of Utah does.

Just as is true today, it will be incumbent upon each person who chooses to carry a gun to be aware of all applicable laws: State and federal. Fortunately, with State preemption, we don't have any local laws to deal with. But in some other States that is not true and the gun carrier must be aware of federal, State, and local laws.

Charles
 

sg_pilot

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I actually wrote Rep. Wimmer about a week and a half ago about the GFSZ and constitutional carry, like you guys are talking about. I haven't heard back from him.. and from what I hear from other people who have written to him, I'm not likely to.
 

rpyne

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What is happening with modifying the Disorderly Conduct, Disturbing the Peace, Disrupting, etc sections being modified to specify that open carrying without other actions is not a violation.

They tried a last minute fix for part of it late last session which failed mostly because it came up too late, but I don't see anything this year on the subject. I thought USSC was supposed to be working on getting this done.
 

cdrhoad

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unless they also have a Concealed Firearm Permit issued by Utah (or perhaps a State recognized by Utah and that was issued following a background check). In Urban Areas it is really hard to know where all the Federal GFSZ areas are (the current problem for the open carry public who do not have a permit).

One other thing to point out is that the federal GFSZ law only authorizes those who have a permit that is issued to them from the state that the school zone is in.

Title 18 U.S.C §922(q)
"does not apply to the possession of a firearm... (amended) ...if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;"


So even though Idaho recognizes my Utah CFP the federal governmet still restricts me from entering a school zone in Idaho unless Idaho has also issued me a permit.
 
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Max

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, Wisconsin, USA
Here is a way to get around the federal gun free school zones.

Montana Code Annotated

45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the
right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in
Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not
been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or
to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be
individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the
meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in
the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act.
 

Michael Hopkins

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Here is a way to get around the federal gun free school zones.

Montana Code Annotated

45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the
right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in
Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not
been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or
to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be
individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the
meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in
the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act.

It's so crazy, it might just work. Thanks for posting the above annotated code. :)
 

swillden

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One other thing to point out is that the federal GFSZ law only authorizes those who have a permit that is issued to them from the state that the school zone is in.

Title 18 U.S.C §922(q)
"does not apply to the possession of a firearm... (amended) ...if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;"


So even though Idaho recognizes my Utah CFP the federal governmet still restricts me from entering a school zone in Idaho unless Idaho has also issued me a permit.
That's not quite correct.

Rather, it's true as far as it goes, but it doesn't go quite far enough.

You quoted 18 USC 922(q)(2)(A)(ii), but (ii) is part of a list of exception, and there's another exception that I think the Utah legislature could make applicable. I'm afraid Montana's approach of declaring everyone as licensed may fail due to the portion of (ii) that I bolded above. Sub-subparagraph (iv) of 922(q)(2)(B), however, contains no such individual verification requirement. It states that the restriction on carry "does not apply to the possession of a firearm—"

(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

If the schools were to create and approve a "Keep our schools safe" program that authorizes any person who lawfully possesses a firearm to possess it in school zones in order to protect school children from violence, then this exception to the law would cover everyone, with or without a permit.

Sam Fidler presented this idea to Curt Oda at the Browning Day event and Oda responded that the state legislature has no authority to direct the school districts to establish such a program. If true, then this idea is mostly useless, since it would be necessary to convince each school district in the state. But it seems odd to me that the legislature, who organizes and funds public education in the state has no authority to direct the school districts.

I'm not suggesting that this item be added to this year's legislative agenda. I think there's quite enough on the pro-gun legislators' plates this year. But I would like to see it explored, to determine if it's legally and politically feasible for a future year.
 

cdrhoad

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Lehi,Utah
You are correct Swillden. I did omit that portion and have been following the related posts on the other forum. I felt it was important that it was understood that the school zone law still pertains to a non resident permit holder (not just Utah non-res) is still subject to the federal law in other states the recognize the non-res permit. Unless that individual has authorization from the school district.

A interesting side note about that. I believe there was some Utah legislation that went through a while ago about allowing firearms safety training being allowed in schools or school programs, but none of the districts have done anything about it. I think some further investigation into this situation may help us to understand why Rep Oda was implying that legislature didn't have that authority. I will start a new thread if I find anything.
 

rpyne

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Provo, Utah, USA
Sam Fidler presented this idea to Curt Oda at the Browning Day event and Oda responded that the state legislature has no authority to direct the school districts to establish such a program. If true, then this idea is mostly useless, since it would be necessary to convince each school district in the state. But it seems odd to me that the legislature, who organizes and funds public education in the state has no authority to direct the school districts.

If Buttars proposed amendment to the Utah Constitution passes, the legislature will have the authority.
 

swillden

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The text of the proposed amendment is here:

http://le.utah.gov/~2011/bills/sbillint/sjr001.htm

It is simple and straight forward.
Indeed it is... it adds four words to the Constitution "as provided by statute". This also makes clear why the legislature presently doesn't have the authority to tell schools what to do -- the Utah Constitution vests that authority in the state board of education. I should have known that.
 
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