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Thread: Cop-think

  1. #1
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    Cop-think

    I made some comments in another thread, got to thinking about it, so now I'm making my comments from that other thread into a new thread -- Here's some of what I said, and I think it applies to many posts I read on this forum, and several other internet gun/RKBA forums:

    To many of the typical open carry advocates I see on internet gun/RKBA forums:

    Are you stating that you unequivocably do NOT believe that any law enforcement officers are capable of writing accurate, factual reports of their encounters with citizens?

    That you believe all cops "massage" the facts to conform to their "version" of what actually transpired during their encounters with citizens?

    That you absolutely cannot believe that cops can ever be trusted to recount the whole truth in their documentation?

    If so, you become another sad example of the ever-widening gap between those self-proclaimed open-carry advocates and all of your local law enforcement community. Do you really believe that there are not people in law enforcement that are interested in protecting your Second Amendment rights? That there are not people in law enforcement that have occasion to peruse the internet firearms and RKBA forums to get a read on what the citizens are talking about, how they feel about issues, and what they're saying about law enforcement?

    If you continue to expound on your lack of trust in all those engaged in law enforcement, if you continue to indicate your unwillingness to see both sides of an issue, if you continue to stereotype the millions of individuals working in law enforcement, you become part of the problem, and not a solution.

    And really, since so many threads on this board, and many others, turn into mass preaching to the choir threads, wherein every poster chimes in to talk about how their local cops can't be trusted to deal respectfully and honestly with those in the open carry movement, we see yet another example of why there may never be reconciliation between the two sides, any sort of respectful rapport, any trust ...

    ... and ultimately, this is exactly why the open carry movement may fail, since you need law enforcement on your side, and cannot simply go on maintaining adversarial attitudes and suspicion.

    Frankly, I see more willingness to accept open carry on the part of the law enforcement community than I see willingness of those in the OC movement to accept LEOs as honest citizens trying to do a job and possible allies.

    I've noted numerous LEOs -- diehard 2A supporters all -- try to come aboard this forum, and several other gun forums, trying to forge relationships, simply to be shouted down in every thread -- and ultimately quit trying, because of all the forum members that simply cannot try to see the other side of an issue.

    Your loss. Truly.
    Last edited by Bo; 01-14-2011 at 02:22 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    This thread will quickly go to Offtopikstan... it's just not a good idea to start a thread that is addressed to one individual (can be seen as an attack) and revolves around the police (i.e. police bashing).

    I see this as an attempt to bait SVG (he's too smart for you) and others into areas which reflect us very poorly.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Ibtl - Really? So who was Ocing at this event? Do we have video? This sounded like a fun time

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    I don't really care if the thread is locked. It would simply underscore how one side cannot tolerate dissenting opinions.

    Edited the OP. At any rate, I was not directing it at ONE person (and since you don't know me from Adam, I'm pretty certain you can't be sure that the individual you named is smarter than me).
    I see this as an attempt to bait SVG (he's too smart for you) and others into areas which reflect us very poorly.
    Although, I have to ask: did you actually read that individual's posts in the other thread? And you're saying that I'm bringing up some areas that would reflect badly on you?
    Last edited by Bo; 01-14-2011 at 02:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo View Post
    I don't really care if the thread is locked.

    It would simply underscore how one side cannot tolerate dissenting opinions.
    I see. A glock 21 you say? That's awesome. I stick with the Beretta 92FS myself but to each their own. Have you tried a Sig? I hear the 226 isn't a bad pistol, but I'm not a huge Sig fan myself. (I think it's a 226, anywayz) Ask GoGoDawgs. He has done extensive research. Thank you for your post.
    Last edited by Deleted_User; 01-14-2011 at 02:30 AM.

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    This should be good !!

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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    "...and ultimately, this is exactly why the open carry movement may fail, since you need law enforcement on your side, and cannot simply go on maintaining adversarial attitudes and suspicion." - Bo

    Anyone who regards law enforcement as a club in which WE THE PEOPLE must gain respect for in order to be acknowledged as "being on their side" has already prevented a solution. The very reason our founding fathers put the right to bear arms into the constitution was due to the fact that the government (police included) will ultimately try to rule over us with unauthorized authority.

    That being said, I do not doubt that there are good people in the force. A few officers I met at our Vancouver OC picnic were quite open to our group and what we support. On a personal level, that is great. On a legal level, I shouldn't have to convince an officer of my rights.

    A lot of our discussion on this board about police officers are due to the fact that the officers general input on the subject is what leads to false detentions/arrests. I can link a million stories involving good citizens being killed by police officers and probably a million more involving just the opposite - stories involving police officers doing honorable duties.

    As an open carrier, I have encountered only one bad instance with an officer during OC. I have also only had two encounters. The one time I did not have trouble was when I spoke with the commander before actually encountering the police. We only go from experience and testimony.

    I would encourage ANY officer who posts on this forum to engage in conversation about the current laws and/or discuss their testimonies of when they encountered an OCer. That would help solve a lot IMHO.

    Joe~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo View Post
    I made some comments in another thread, got to thinking about it, so now I'm making my comments from that other thread into a new thread -- Here's some of what I said, and I think it applies to many posts I read on this forum, and several other internet gun/RKBA forums:

    To many of the typical open carry advocates I see on internet gun/RKBA forums:

    Are you stating that you unequivocably do NOT believe that any law enforcement officers are capable of writing accurate, factual reports of their encounters with citizens?

    That you believe all cops "massage" the facts to conform to their "version" of what actually transpired during their encounters with citizens?

    That you absolutely cannot believe that cops can ever be trusted to recount the whole truth in their documentation?

    If so, you become another sad example of the ever-widening gap between those self-proclaimed open-carry advocates and all of your local law enforcement community. Do you really believe that there are not people in law enforcement that are interested in protecting your Second Amendment rights? That there are not people in law enforcement that have occasion to peruse the internet firearms and RKBA forums to get a read on what the citizens are talking about, how they feel about issues, and what they're saying about law enforcement?

    If you continue to expound on your lack of trust in all those engaged in law enforcement, if you continue to indicate your unwillingness to see both sides of an issue, if you continue to stereotype the millions of individuals working in law enforcement, you become part of the problem, and not a solution.

    And really, since so many threads on this board, and many others, turn into mass preaching to the choir threads, wherein every poster chimes in to talk about how their local cops can't be trusted to deal respectfully and honestly with those in the open carry movement, we see yet another example of why there may never be reconciliation between the two sides, any sort of respectful rapport, any trust ...

    ... and ultimately, this is exactly why the open carry movement may fail, since you need law enforcement on your side, and cannot simply go on maintaining adversarial attitudes and suspicion.

    Frankly, I see more willingness to accept open carry on the part of the law enforcement community than I see willingness of those in the OC movement to accept LEOs as honest citizens trying to do a job and possible allies.

    I've noted numerous LEOs -- diehard 2A supporters all -- try to come aboard this forum, and several other gun forums, trying to forge relationships, simply to be shouted down in every thread -- and ultimately quit trying, because of all the forum members that simply cannot try to see the other side of an issue.

    Your loss. Truly.

    Why do these types of posts always go off on a red-herring about cops supporting the 2A? I cannot recall any bad police encounters where the 2A was violated. The problem between OCers and cops is not a 2A issue. It is 4A and 5A that almost always implicated.

    I don't give a rip how much a cop supports the 2A if he is going to go around violating the 4A and trying to intimidate or use cutsey cop conversational tactics to trick people into waiving their 5A right against self-incrimination. Simply put, some of these forum-joiner cops are simply statists who want us to accept and adopt their ideas and justifications. While saying they support 2A, they get rather annoyed when challenged on their anti-freedom ideas in other areas. What the hell is the 2A for but to protect the rest of the freedoms? Is the 2A really only to protect the 2A? Give me a break, please.

    Why do these types of posts seem to put the onus for reconciliation on the OCers? Plainly cops are supposed to be applying the law and respecting rights--all rights, not just 2A. There should be no bridge to build in the first place. The OP strongly implies that unless OCers do something, some cops are not going to change their ways.

    Give me a break from the one-sided arguments and cop support, puh-leeze.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-14-2011 at 03:20 AM.

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    As if on cue, the gentleman from Virginia chimes in to support my position.

    No one's putting the onus for reconciliation on the OCers, dude. I was duly noting the tenor of posts in threads that mentioned law enforcement.

    The OP strongly implies that unless OCers do something, some cops are not going to change their ways.
    How so? Simply stating that the anti-cop statements do nothing to further your cause, nor help build bridges. It's not the cops on these forums making the extreme statements, buddy.

    Frankly, the hypocrisy of some of you that rail against stereotyping of gun-owners and OCers, yet engage in wholesale stereotyping of everyone in law enforcement is mind-boggling.

    Finally -- we are trying to build bridges here in Washington; if you are typical of those in the OC movement in Virginia, citizen, no wonder you're having trouble getting support.
    Simply put, some of these forum-joiner cops are simply statists who want us to accept and adopt their ideas and justifications.
    Puh-leeze, indeed.
    Last edited by Bo; 01-14-2011 at 03:29 AM.

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    well,,,

    Hi Bo!! you so indeed sound like a thoughtful and intelligent guy!
    Im sure that your personable and likable out look will fit in here very well.
    we here in the 2A and open carry community look forward to hearing a breath of fresh air.
    im glad that some people can see clearly the proper out look to fuse our new and improved bond.
    i will read with interest your guidance and wisdom as we move toward a new world of mutual understanding.
    i remember so many of the numerous stories of pleasant consensual encounters that our friends here on these
    boards have had with our trusted and revered friends in thee law enforcement community.(that part is true)

    i think it makes me feel sad when some one says that they felt that a trusted member of the law enforcement
    jack booted thug community, order them to the ground, point their guns at their head, and violate their
    4th amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure, yea, i think that makes me feel sad.
    I'm all ears!!!!
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 01-14-2011 at 06:32 AM.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo View Post
    I made some comments in another thread, got to thinking about it, so now I'm making my comments from that other thread into a new thread -- Here's some of what I said, and I think it applies to many posts I read on this forum, and several other internet gun/RKBA forums:

    To many of the typical open carry advocates I see on internet gun/RKBA forums:

    Are you stating that you unequivocably do NOT believe that any law enforcement officers are capable of writing accurate, factual reports of their encounters with citizens?

    Of course not, don't be silly.

    That you believe all cops "massage" the facts to conform to their "version" of what actually transpired during their encounters with citizens?

    Of course not, don't be silly.

    That you absolutely cannot believe that cops can ever be trusted to recount the whole truth in their documentation?

    Of course not, don't be silly.

    If so, you become another sad example of the ever-widening gap between those self-proclaimed open-carry advocates and all of your local law enforcement community. Do you really believe that there are not people in law enforcement that are interested in protecting your Second Amendment rights? That there are not people in law enforcement that have occasion to peruse the internet firearms and RKBA forums to get a read on what the citizens are talking about, how they feel about issues, and what they're saying about law enforcement?

    "self-proclaimed" ? Wondering why you choose to use that word.... no matter.
    What do cops reading Open Carry forums have to do with anything? How do you know every cops motives for doing so?


    If you continue to expound on your lack of trust in all those engaged in law enforcement, if you continue to indicate your unwillingness to see both sides of an issue, if you continue to stereotype the millions of individuals working in law enforcement, you become part of the problem, and not a solution.

    I agree. The same can be said for cops who sterotype opencarry as a problem.

    And really, since so many threads on this board, and many others, turn into mass preaching to the choir threads, wherein every poster chimes in to talk about how their local cops can't be trusted to deal respectfully and honestly with those in the open carry movement, we see yet another example of why there may never be reconciliation between the two sides, any sort of respectful rapport, any trust ...

    The same can be said for any Internet forum including pro cop forums. It's human nature. Nothing new here.

    ... and ultimately, this is exactly why the open carry movement may fail, since you need law enforcement on your side, and cannot simply go on maintaining adversarial attitudes and suspicion.

    We have the LAW on our side. We shouldn't have to persuade cops to uphold the law. And that sir, is the issue.

    Frankly, I see more willingness to accept open carry on the part of the law enforcement community than I see willingness of those in the OC movement to accept LEOs as honest citizens trying to do a job and possible allies.

    Really? Do a search and you will see declarations by cops all over the country against open carry.

    I've noted numerous LEOs -- diehard 2A supporters all -- try to come aboard this forum, and several other gun forums, trying to forge relationships, simply to be shouted down in every thread -- and ultimately quit trying, because of all the forum members that simply cannot try to see the other side of an issue.

    Look inward first.

    Your loss. Truly.
    Possibly.

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    Every cop that has not demanded ID from me while breaking no laws is a good cop doing his job and is to be commended. We hear mostly of the problem encounters on here because those are the things that need to be worked on. I've never heard anyone on this forum seriously say that ALL cops can't be trusted. People simply focus on the areas that work needs to be done. If anyone engages in "cop bashing" it's generally directed at the officers that weren't doing their job of protecting ALL of our rights.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    I agree for the most part with BO . Having spent a career in LE, I have seen both sides. Granted there are the bad apples, and they make it bad for the good ones. However, contrary to popular belief, the bad ones are weeded out fairly soon. Am I 100% pro LEO? Not by a damn site. I worked some IA cases and they were disposed of quickly. The big problem with bad cops, is not the other LEO, but the Chief (political appointee) and prosecutors (not all prosecutors) that do not file an information or file charges to prosecute.
    We had one officer who did a lateral xfer from NYPD. He was one of the "Good Ole Boys" that the Chief would support in almost everything he did, because he was a "former New York Cop" as if that made him any better. The rank and file officers (thin blue line) made it so rough on him that he resigned and went back to NYPD.

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    Granted and it is a given not all groups will have all good people that will come to the forefront for their ill deeds.
    This in itself is not an accurate description of the majority in what we are discussing with RKBA Advocates and Law Enforcement there are far more that do good and great things but the bad ones makes the news.

    We have those that at ever opportunity will spew never trust, they always massage reports blah blah blah and make claims that cannot be verified as one in this thread of showing millions of incidents (where are they, show me).

    To normalize open carry and the RKBA, is upon our shoulders like it or not and taking an attitude of I should not have to is just being stubborn and works against the cause by continuing a conflict.
    What do most think here normalize means, it is not in your face, seeking conflict, ranting and raving it is just simply carrying in a calm secure manner that does not cause alarm to others by their actions (regardless if armed or not).

    The forum has a rule
    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.
    To bad we do not have one covering stories that cite any type of conflict with law enforcement so there is enough information to be informed.
    One thing for sure it would cut down on Bull stories... that do nothing but harm how this or any other who supports the RKBA.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post

    To bad we do not have one covering stories that cite any type of conflict with law enforcement so there is enough information to be informed.
    One thing for sure it would cut down on Bull stories... that do nothing but harm how this or any other who supports the RKBA.
    We do have stories that make it to the media from time to time that outline positive outcomes. Tom's Starbucks incident is one that shows how attitude can influence the outcome and draw positive attention. Does anyone think that anyone in the media would have given Tom the time of day if he took the position of "bunch of bleeping jackbooted thugs, yada, yada, yada"? Instead he maintained his cool, stuck to his principles, and didn't resort to name calling. As a result a lot more people beside those that read and post here are aware of their rights, thanks to someone sticking to the facts and not applying a "broad brush" to the situation.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEROS72 View Post
    This should be good !!
    What he said ^

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEROS72 View Post
    This should be good !!
    Pass the salt please...

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    oh well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    Pass the salt please...
    no need for snacks,,,, where did bo go?
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  19. #19
    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
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    Bo I'm going to agree with you it seems like so often on this forum we jump to labeling all LEO's the same. Just like Trigger Dr I will admit there are some bad cops out there but I would say the number of good cops by far out weigh the number of bad cops. After working as a Firefighter/EMT for eight year I have had a opportunity to work with a lots of different cops from all round the state and federal levels. I often find my self starting conversations about OC with the police to try and gag a general consensus. The majority of the time the police I talk to tell me they know OC is legal and really don't care. Even the ones who don't agree with it personally tell me that they still know what the RCW says and tell me they still honor them.
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

  20. #20
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEROS72 View Post
    This should be good !!
    Quote Originally Posted by tannerwaterbury View Post
    What he said ^
    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    Pass the salt please...
    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    no need for snacks,,,, where did bo go?

    Why should he stick around with comments like these. If we want some diversity of opinions here why not address his comments.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Well, I didn't really think that I needed to stick around to argue my original post. I merely asked some questions that'd occurred to me (primarily in response to one member's oft-repeated opinions), and offered my own opinion.
    self-proclaimed" ? Wondering why you choose to use that word.... no matter.
    What do cops reading Open Carry forums have to do with anything? How do you know every cops motives for doing so?

    Eh, the self-proclaimed thing came from the fact that most of you are known only through the internet; having met or knowing only a few of the members here, one has to accept that someone is an advocate of the movement based solely on what's posted on the internet. No reflection intended on the many gentlemen (and ladies) who constitute the bona fide representatives of open-carry, doing all the hard work, putting the public face of OC folk out there, working the gun shows, setting superb examples in Olympia and with the media, having to be dragged unjustifiably through costly legal processes -- these are not the people that create any problems -- it's the posters whose constant, repetitive derogatory jibes at law enforcement no matter in what context LE is mentioned , whose virulent and slanted bias against all things cop come out in almost every single one of their posts (some even make it their sig-lines) -- those are to whom my comments were addressed.

    Cops on gun forums? Really? You need to ask? Many, many cops love guns and have a deep respect for anything concerning gun rights. Regrettably, some of you have encountered those that don't share that respect. But it's not the cops on internet forums that you need to be arguing with; if there wasn't some common ground, they (I) wouldn't be here.
    We have the LAW on our side. We shouldn't have to persuade cops to uphold the law. And that sir, is the issue.
    I don't disagree. But that, sadly, is the reality. OC is a relative new movement that's burgeoned in the past decade. For those of you that love to compare OC's acceptance with the civil rights movement, look how long that took. Further, you've got to look at what's become the cultural norms throughout most of our country and how the liberal, nanny-state PC mentality took hold over our institutions in the past 40 years -- infesting law enforcement leadership -- and our media, television, politics but mostly our public schools -- so look at the new generation coming into the law enforcement professions. Lots of ingrained cultural attitudes to change. Did anyone say it was supposed to be easy?
    Really? Do a search and you will see declarations by cops all over the country against open carry.

    An internet search? Woo. Yep, there are some. Far more by CoPs, sheriffs, and the weenie administrators rather than rank-and-file street cops. But many more thousand far more virulent statements toward cops (statists, jack-booted thugs, etc.) by supposed gun people than from cops toward gun people.

    I don't notice a lot of cops on gun forums making blanket statements that gun-owners and gun-carriers cannot be trusted, that they lie and love taking away the legal rights of citizens.
    Look inward first.

    Really now? That's quite the pithy little jab. I'll have to ponder that ...

  22. #22
    Regular Member Bobarino's Avatar
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    Bo, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute or two.

    As others have stated, we shouldn't have to convince the police to respect our rights. When a LEO gets on here and starts defending another LEO's actions that were clearly in the wrong, it sets a tone for LEO's. Of course they do no represent every LEO out there, but it gives at least a small cross section of reference. From what I've seen, cops really only get bashed when they attempt to defend the indefensible in the name of "officer safety" and other bogus statements used to violate someone's rights. Cops are a group that are extremely reluctant to call out their fellow officers. That just worsens the problem.

    As for filing truthful reports, I believe all cops are capable of doing so, but some choose not to. Take a generic negative encounter that you might see posted on these boards for instance. Do you really think the cop is going to put in his report:

    "On 26 May at 1300 hours, I illegally detained a Caucasian male who was openly carrying a pistol, secured in a holster on his waistband, illegally seized the weapon and the man's ID, performed an unwarranted background check and check of the serial number of the gun. Before handing it back to the man and telling him to not reload the gun until I was gone, I illegally attempted to coerce the man not to open carry using threat of arrest in direct violation of 42USC242 and exposing the department to possible liabilities under 42USC1983."

    Or would you expect to see something more like this:

    "On 26 May at 1300 hours, I observed an armed man acting suspiciously and detained him, disarmed him and ran a check for warrants and a possible stolen weapon because I felt he was a threat to my safety and the safety of the public. No wants or warrants were found but I advise the person that openly carrying a firearm is dangerous and inadvisable."

    There is copious amounts of CYA that happens in police reports. Just look at the John Williams shooting as evidence of that.

    ALWAYS keep in mind, that it's illegal for you to lie to the cops, but they can lie to you all the live long day and it is legal. They are very well aware of their ability to lie without repercussion and even if they are caught, qualified immunity will likely protect them.

    The solution here is even more simple than you're suggesting. It's not for OC'ers to build bridges, or warm up to LEO's, or show respect. The solution is for LEO's to quit violating peoples' rights.

    Citizen in right on when he says it's more a matter of 4A rights than 2A rights.

    The hot head cops aren't great in number, but they do give the rest a bad name and bad reputation. I think the main problem with modern police is their training. They are trained and taught that they are the THE FINAL word on the street, regardless of what the law says. They are taught to lie to get people to confess. They are taught to treat virtually everyone they encounter as a suspect, even the victims of crimes.

    The change that we seek starts at the top and works it's way down to the beat cop. To get to the top, we use the remedy of law suits and injunctions. That's how the system is set up. We didn't make the rules, we just play by them.

    We've all seen how effective it is to argue with a cop on the street, so the bottom line remains, get them trained properly to quit violating peoples' rights and we won't have a problem.

    Bobby

  23. #23
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobarino View Post
    Bo, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute or two.

    As others have stated, we shouldn't have to convince the police to respect our rights. When a LEO gets on here and starts defending another LEO's actions that were clearly in the wrong, it sets a tone for LEO's. Of course they do no represent every LEO out there, but it gives at least a small cross section of reference. From what I've seen, cops really only get bashed when they attempt to defend the indefensible in the name of "officer safety" and other bogus statements used to violate someone's rights. Cops are a group that are extremely reluctant to call out their fellow officers. That just worsens the problem.

    As for filing truthful reports, I believe all cops are capable of doing so, but some choose not to. Take a generic negative encounter that you might see posted on these boards for instance. Do you really think the cop is going to put in his report:

    "On 26 May at 1300 hours, I illegally detained a Caucasian male who was openly carrying a pistol, secured in a holster on his waistband, illegally seized the weapon and the man's ID, performed an unwarranted background check and check of the serial number of the gun. Before handing it back to the man and telling him to not reload the gun until I was gone, I illegally attempted to coerce the man not to open carry using threat of arrest in direct violation of 42USC242 and exposing the department to possible liabilities under 42USC1983."

    Or would you expect to see something more like this:

    "On 26 May at 1300 hours, I observed an armed man acting suspiciously and detained him, disarmed him and ran a check for warrants and a possible stolen weapon because I felt he was a threat to my safety and the safety of the public. No wants or warrants were found but I advise the person that openly carrying a firearm is dangerous and inadvisable."

    There is copious amounts of CYA that happens in police reports. Just look at the John Williams shooting as evidence of that.

    ALWAYS keep in mind, that it's illegal for you to lie to the cops, but they can lie to you all the live long day and it is legal. They are very well aware of their ability to lie without repercussion and even if they are caught, qualified immunity will likely protect them.

    The solution here is even more simple than you're suggesting. It's not for OC'ers to build bridges, or warm up to LEO's, or show respect. The solution is for LEO's to quit violating peoples' rights.

    Citizen in right on when he says it's more a matter of 4A rights than 2A rights.

    The hot head cops aren't great in number, but they do give the rest a bad name and bad reputation. I think the main problem with modern police is their training. They are trained and taught that they are the THE FINAL word on the street, regardless of what the law says. They are taught to lie to get people to confess. They are taught to treat virtually everyone they encounter as a suspect, even the victims of crimes.

    The change that we seek starts at the top and works it's way down to the beat cop. To get to the top, we use the remedy of law suits and injunctions. That's how the system is set up. We didn't make the rules, we just play by them.

    We've all seen how effective it is to argue with a cop on the street, so the bottom line remains, get them trained properly to quit violating peoples' rights and we won't have a problem.

    Bobby
    Well written. Good Job.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  24. #24
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Why should he stick around with comments like these. If we want some diversity of opinions here why not address his comments.
    Why do you assume "comments like these" are intended in a negative fashion?

    My opinions on this topic have already been recorded in the other 2 dozen threads that have been started or transformed to this debate over the last 2 years. I have no interest in re-stating the obvious, but I do like to read the debates and opinions none the less.

    Carry On!

  25. #25
    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Lots of documented proof of police misconduct and "immunity" from accountability.

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...&aq=f&aqi=&oq=

    From David Codrea's WaronGuns

    http://waronguns.blogspot.com/

    About "The Only Ones"
    The purpose of this feature has never been to bash cops. The only reason I do this is to amass a credible body of evidence to present when those who would deny our right to keep and bear arms use the argument that only government enforcers are professional and trained enough to do so safely and responsibly. And it's also used to illustrate when those of official status, rank or privilege, both in law enforcement and in some other government position, get special breaks not available to we commoners, particularly (but not exclusively) when they're involved in gun-related incidents.

    And then, there are the fake "cops": http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2011/0...y-ones_10.html

    And we're supposed to know the difference instantly, at night, when our doors are kicked in - because if we actually defend ourselves and they turn out to be "only ones" indeed, then we probably die or spend the rest of our life in prison.

    I'm not a mind reader, and neither are you.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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