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Cop-think

B

Bo

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I made some comments in another thread, got to thinking about it, so now I'm making my comments from that other thread into a new thread -- Here's some of what I said, and I think it applies to many posts I read on this forum, and several other internet gun/RKBA forums:

To many of the typical open carry advocates I see on internet gun/RKBA forums:

Are you stating that you unequivocably do NOT believe that any law enforcement officers are capable of writing accurate, factual reports of their encounters with citizens?

That you believe all cops "massage" the facts to conform to their "version" of what actually transpired during their encounters with citizens?

That you absolutely cannot believe that cops can ever be trusted to recount the whole truth in their documentation?

If so, you become another sad example of the ever-widening gap between those self-proclaimed open-carry advocates and all of your local law enforcement community. Do you really believe that there are not people in law enforcement that are interested in protecting your Second Amendment rights? That there are not people in law enforcement that have occasion to peruse the internet firearms and RKBA forums to get a read on what the citizens are talking about, how they feel about issues, and what they're saying about law enforcement?

If you continue to expound on your lack of trust in all those engaged in law enforcement, if you continue to indicate your unwillingness to see both sides of an issue, if you continue to stereotype the millions of individuals working in law enforcement, you become part of the problem, and not a solution.

And really, since so many threads on this board, and many others, turn into mass preaching to the choir threads, wherein every poster chimes in to talk about how their local cops can't be trusted to deal respectfully and honestly with those in the open carry movement, we see yet another example of why there may never be reconciliation between the two sides, any sort of respectful rapport, any trust ...

... and ultimately, this is exactly why the open carry movement may fail, since you need law enforcement on your side, and cannot simply go on maintaining adversarial attitudes and suspicion.

Frankly, I see more willingness to accept open carry on the part of the law enforcement community than I see willingness of those in the OC movement to accept LEOs as honest citizens trying to do a job and possible allies.

I've noted numerous LEOs -- diehard 2A supporters all -- try to come aboard this forum, and several other gun forums, trying to forge relationships, simply to be shouted down in every thread -- and ultimately quit trying, because of all the forum members that simply cannot try to see the other side of an issue.

Your loss. Truly.
 
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gogodawgs

gogodawgs

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This thread will quickly go to Offtopikstan... it's just not a good idea to start a thread that is addressed to one individual (can be seen as an attack) and revolves around the police (i.e. police bashing).

I see this as an attempt to bait SVG (he's too smart for you) and others into areas which reflect us very poorly.
 
B

Bo

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I don't really care if the thread is locked. It would simply underscore how one side cannot tolerate dissenting opinions.

Edited the OP. At any rate, I was not directing it at ONE person (and since you don't know me from Adam, I'm pretty certain you can't be sure that the individual you named is smarter than me).
I see this as an attempt to bait SVG (he's too smart for you) and others into areas which reflect us very poorly.
Click to expand...
Although, I have to ask: did you actually read that individual's posts in the other thread? And you're saying that I'm bringing up some areas that would reflect badly on you?
 
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D

Deleted_User

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Bo said:
I don't really care if the thread is locked.

It would simply underscore how one side cannot tolerate dissenting opinions.
Click to expand...

I see. A glock 21 you say? That's awesome. I stick with the Beretta 92FS myself but to each their own. Have you tried a Sig? I hear the 226 isn't a bad pistol, but I'm not a huge Sig fan myself. (I think it's a 226, anywayz) Ask GoGoDawgs. He has done extensive research. Thank you for your post.
 
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joejoejoe

joejoejoe

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"...and ultimately, this is exactly why the open carry movement may fail, since you need law enforcement on your side, and cannot simply go on maintaining adversarial attitudes and suspicion." - Bo

Anyone who regards law enforcement as a club in which WE THE PEOPLE must gain respect for in order to be acknowledged as "being on their side" has already prevented a solution. The very reason our founding fathers put the right to bear arms into the constitution was due to the fact that the government (police included) will ultimately try to rule over us with unauthorized authority.

That being said, I do not doubt that there are good people in the force. A few officers I met at our Vancouver OC picnic were quite open to our group and what we support. On a personal level, that is great. On a legal level, I shouldn't have to convince an officer of my rights.

A lot of our discussion on this board about police officers are due to the fact that the officers general input on the subject is what leads to false detentions/arrests. I can link a million stories involving good citizens being killed by police officers and probably a million more involving just the opposite - stories involving police officers doing honorable duties.

As an open carrier, I have encountered only one bad instance with an officer during OC. I have also only had two encounters. The one time I did not have trouble was when I spoke with the commander before actually encountering the police. We only go from experience and testimony.

I would encourage ANY officer who posts on this forum to engage in conversation about the current laws and/or discuss their testimonies of when they encountered an OCer. That would help solve a lot IMHO.

Joe~
 
C

Citizen

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Bo said:
I made some comments in another thread, got to thinking about it, so now I'm making my comments from that other thread into a new thread -- Here's some of what I said, and I think it applies to many posts I read on this forum, and several other internet gun/RKBA forums:

To many of the typical open carry advocates I see on internet gun/RKBA forums:

Are you stating that you unequivocably do NOT believe that any law enforcement officers are capable of writing accurate, factual reports of their encounters with citizens?

That you believe all cops "massage" the facts to conform to their "version" of what actually transpired during their encounters with citizens?

That you absolutely cannot believe that cops can ever be trusted to recount the whole truth in their documentation?

If so, you become another sad example of the ever-widening gap between those self-proclaimed open-carry advocates and all of your local law enforcement community. Do you really believe that there are not people in law enforcement that are interested in protecting your Second Amendment rights? That there are not people in law enforcement that have occasion to peruse the internet firearms and RKBA forums to get a read on what the citizens are talking about, how they feel about issues, and what they're saying about law enforcement?

If you continue to expound on your lack of trust in all those engaged in law enforcement, if you continue to indicate your unwillingness to see both sides of an issue, if you continue to stereotype the millions of individuals working in law enforcement, you become part of the problem, and not a solution.

And really, since so many threads on this board, and many others, turn into mass preaching to the choir threads, wherein every poster chimes in to talk about how their local cops can't be trusted to deal respectfully and honestly with those in the open carry movement, we see yet another example of why there may never be reconciliation between the two sides, any sort of respectful rapport, any trust ...

... and ultimately, this is exactly why the open carry movement may fail, since you need law enforcement on your side, and cannot simply go on maintaining adversarial attitudes and suspicion.

Frankly, I see more willingness to accept open carry on the part of the law enforcement community than I see willingness of those in the OC movement to accept LEOs as honest citizens trying to do a job and possible allies.

I've noted numerous LEOs -- diehard 2A supporters all -- try to come aboard this forum, and several other gun forums, trying to forge relationships, simply to be shouted down in every thread -- and ultimately quit trying, because of all the forum members that simply cannot try to see the other side of an issue.

Your loss. Truly.
Click to expand...


Why do these types of posts always go off on a red-herring about cops supporting the 2A? I cannot recall any bad police encounters where the 2A was violated. The problem between OCers and cops is not a 2A issue. It is 4A and 5A that almost always implicated.

I don't give a rip how much a cop supports the 2A if he is going to go around violating the 4A and trying to intimidate or use cutsey cop conversational tactics to trick people into waiving their 5A right against self-incrimination. Simply put, some of these forum-joiner cops are simply statists who want us to accept and adopt their ideas and justifications. While saying they support 2A, they get rather annoyed when challenged on their anti-freedom ideas in other areas. What the hell is the 2A for but to protect the rest of the freedoms? Is the 2A really only to protect the 2A? Give me a break, please.

Why do these types of posts seem to put the onus for reconciliation on the OCers? Plainly cops are supposed to be applying the law and respecting rights--all rights, not just 2A. There should be no bridge to build in the first place. The OP strongly implies that unless OCers do something, some cops are not going to change their ways.

Give me a break from the one-sided arguments and cop support, puh-leeze.
 
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B

Bo

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As if on cue, the gentleman from Virginia chimes in to support my position.

No one's putting the onus for reconciliation on the OCers, dude. I was duly noting the tenor of posts in threads that mentioned law enforcement.

The OP strongly implies that unless OCers do something, some cops are not going to change their ways.
Click to expand...
How so? Simply stating that the anti-cop statements do nothing to further your cause, nor help build bridges. It's not the cops on these forums making the extreme statements, buddy.

Frankly, the hypocrisy of some of you that rail against stereotyping of gun-owners and OCers, yet engage in wholesale stereotyping of everyone in law enforcement is mind-boggling.

Finally -- we are trying to build bridges here in Washington; if you are typical of those in the OC movement in Virginia, citizen, no wonder you're having trouble getting support.
Simply put, some of these forum-joiner cops are simply statists who want us to accept and adopt their ideas and justifications.
Click to expand...
Puh-leeze, indeed.
 
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1245A Defender

1245A Defender

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well,,,

Hi Bo!! you so indeed sound like a thoughtful and intelligent guy!
Im sure that your personable and likable out look will fit in here very well.
we here in the 2A and open carry community look forward to hearing a breath of fresh air.
im glad that some people can see clearly the proper out look to fuse our new and improved bond.
i will read with interest your guidance and wisdom as we move toward a new world of mutual understanding.
i remember so many of the numerous stories of pleasant consensual encounters that our friends here on these
boards have had with our trusted and revered friends in thee law enforcement community.(that part is true)

i think it makes me feel sad when some one says that they felt that a trusted member of the law enforcement
jack booted thug community, order them to the ground, point their guns at their head, and violate their
4th amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure, yea, i think that makes me feel sad.
I'm all ears!!!!
 
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K

Kryteon

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
78
Location
Gig Harbor, Washington, USA
Bo said:
I made some comments in another thread, got to thinking about it, so now I'm making my comments from that other thread into a new thread -- Here's some of what I said, and I think it applies to many posts I read on this forum, and several other internet gun/RKBA forums:

To many of the typical open carry advocates I see on internet gun/RKBA forums:

Are you stating that you unequivocably do NOT believe that any law enforcement officers are capable of writing accurate, factual reports of their encounters with citizens?

Of course not, don't be silly.

That you believe all cops "massage" the facts to conform to their "version" of what actually transpired during their encounters with citizens?

Of course not, don't be silly.

That you absolutely cannot believe that cops can ever be trusted to recount the whole truth in their documentation?

Of course not, don't be silly.

If so, you become another sad example of the ever-widening gap between those self-proclaimed open-carry advocates and all of your local law enforcement community. Do you really believe that there are not people in law enforcement that are interested in protecting your Second Amendment rights? That there are not people in law enforcement that have occasion to peruse the internet firearms and RKBA forums to get a read on what the citizens are talking about, how they feel about issues, and what they're saying about law enforcement?

"self-proclaimed" ? Wondering why you choose to use that word.... no matter.
What do cops reading Open Carry forums have to do with anything? How do you know every cops motives for doing so?

If you continue to expound on your lack of trust in all those engaged in law enforcement, if you continue to indicate your unwillingness to see both sides of an issue, if you continue to stereotype the millions of individuals working in law enforcement, you become part of the problem, and not a solution.

I agree. The same can be said for cops who sterotype opencarry as a problem.

And really, since so many threads on this board, and many others, turn into mass preaching to the choir threads, wherein every poster chimes in to talk about how their local cops can't be trusted to deal respectfully and honestly with those in the open carry movement, we see yet another example of why there may never be reconciliation between the two sides, any sort of respectful rapport, any trust ...

The same can be said for any Internet forum including pro cop forums. It's human nature. Nothing new here.

... and ultimately, this is exactly why the open carry movement may fail, since you need law enforcement on your side, and cannot simply go on maintaining adversarial attitudes and suspicion.

We have the LAW on our side. We shouldn't have to persuade cops to uphold the law. And that sir, is the issue.

Frankly, I see more willingness to accept open carry on the part of the law enforcement community than I see willingness of those in the OC movement to accept LEOs as honest citizens trying to do a job and possible allies.

Really? Do a search and you will see declarations by cops all over the country against open carry.

I've noted numerous LEOs -- diehard 2A supporters all -- try to come aboard this forum, and several other gun forums, trying to forge relationships, simply to be shouted down in every thread -- and ultimately quit trying, because of all the forum members that simply cannot try to see the other side of an issue.

Look inward first.

Your loss. Truly.
Click to expand...

Possibly.
 
tombrewster421

tombrewster421

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Every cop that has not demanded ID from me while breaking no laws is a good cop doing his job and is to be commended. We hear mostly of the problem encounters on here because those are the things that need to be worked on. I've never heard anyone on this forum seriously say that ALL cops can't be trusted. People simply focus on the areas that work needs to be done. If anyone engages in "cop bashing" it's generally directed at the officers that weren't doing their job of protecting ALL of our rights.
 
T

Trigger Dr

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I agree for the most part with BO . Having spent a career in LE, I have seen both sides. Granted there are the bad apples, and they make it bad for the good ones. However, contrary to popular belief, the bad ones are weeded out fairly soon. Am I 100% pro LEO? Not by a damn site. I worked some IA cases and they were disposed of quickly. The big problem with bad cops, is not the other LEO, but the Chief (political appointee) and prosecutors (not all prosecutors) that do not file an information or file charges to prosecute.
We had one officer who did a lateral xfer from NYPD. He was one of the "Good Ole Boys" that the Chief would support in almost everything he did, because he was a "former New York Cop" as if that made him any better. The rank and file officers (thin blue line) made it so rough on him that he resigned and went back to NYPD.
 
BigDave

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Granted and it is a given not all groups will have all good people that will come to the forefront for their ill deeds.
This in itself is not an accurate description of the majority in what we are discussing with RKBA Advocates and Law Enforcement there are far more that do good and great things but the bad ones makes the news.

We have those that at ever opportunity will spew never trust, they always massage reports blah blah blah and make claims that cannot be verified as one in this thread of showing millions of incidents (where are they, show me).

To normalize open carry and the RKBA, is upon our shoulders like it or not and taking an attitude of I should not have to is just being stubborn and works against the cause by continuing a conflict.
What do most think here normalize means, it is not in your face, seeking conflict, ranting and raving it is just simply carrying in a calm secure manner that does not cause alarm to others by their actions (regardless if armed or not).

The forum has a rule
(5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.
Click to expand...

To bad we do not have one covering stories that cite any type of conflict with law enforcement so there is enough information to be informed.
One thing for sure it would cut down on Bull stories... that do nothing but harm how this or any other who supports the RKBA.
 
amlevin

amlevin

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BigDave said:
To bad we do not have one covering stories that cite any type of conflict with law enforcement so there is enough information to be informed.
One thing for sure it would cut down on Bull stories... that do nothing but harm how this or any other who supports the RKBA.
Click to expand...

We do have stories that make it to the media from time to time that outline positive outcomes. Tom's Starbucks incident is one that shows how attitude can influence the outcome and draw positive attention. Does anyone think that anyone in the media would have given Tom the time of day if he took the position of "bunch of bleeping jackbooted thugs, yada, yada, yada"? Instead he maintained his cool, stuck to his principles, and didn't resort to name calling. As a result a lot more people beside those that read and post here are aware of their rights, thanks to someone sticking to the facts and not applying a "broad brush" to the situation.
 
fire suppressor

fire suppressor

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Bo I'm going to agree with you it seems like so often on this forum we jump to labeling all LEO's the same. Just like Trigger Dr I will admit there are some bad cops out there but I would say the number of good cops by far out weigh the number of bad cops. After working as a Firefighter/EMT for eight year I have had a opportunity to work with a lots of different cops from all round the state and federal levels. I often find my self starting conversations about OC with the police to try and gag a general consensus. The majority of the time the police I talk to tell me they know OC is legal and really don't care. Even the ones who don't agree with it personally tell me that they still know what the RCW says and tell me they still honor them.
 
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