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Thread: Big Rapids Violation

  1. #1
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    Big Rapids Violation

    The City of Big Rapids is Violating Michigan Codified Laws 123.1100-123.1105, as are Codified under Michigan Act 913 of 1990, in that, The City of Big Rapids Library has a Policy against Firearms on Big Rapids Library Premises:
    http://www.bigrapids.lib.mi.us/Rules_Of_Behavior.aspx

    *** Look at the Information on The Last Page of their Policy Packet!***
    *** In addition to Preemption Violation, they are also Violating your Forth Amendment Rights!***
    Last edited by aadvark; 01-14-2011 at 06:21 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Welcome to Lansing.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    THey have a contact us thing at the bottom, perhaps you should contact them and advise them of the law, and that it might be unwise to attempt to disarm, or confiscate property from a law abiding citizen.

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    stainless 1911:

    I did that Today!

    I was TOLD by BOTH The Librarian and The Grand Rapids Police that their Policy 'Didn't Really;..., 'Violate'..., 'any Laws?', because; they were Places where People Meet in Numbers?'

    The Librarian and The Grand Rapids Police said that ...[O]pen Carry, Licensed or not, with or without a CPL, is AGAINST The Rules of 'THEIR' Library!

    I need Help!

    Perhaps you could Help me, or Michigan Open Carry, could...

    aadvark

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    I will contact them, as far as MOC, good luck.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 01-14-2011 at 07:29 PM.

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    Email sent.

    According to Michigan's preemption law, the library has to follow state law regarding the lawful carrying of weapons, be it openly or concealed. You have no right, nor authority to regulate or prohibit firearms on the premisis, and neither do the police. You also have no right to confiscate, attempt to confiscate, or otherwise hold property in any way shape or form. Any attempt to do so will open you up to civil lawsuits and criminal charges. If you attempt to seize property, you will be charged with assault and or battery, as well as weapons violations. Michigan law requires that a person in possession of a firearm must have that firearm registered to them. At the point that you come into possession of said firearm, you have opened yourselves up to criminal charges. Any attempt to conceal said firearm will only result in further felonious charges against you. I strongly suggest that you immediately bring your employees in like with state laws concerning this issue.

  7. #7
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Now stainless, you know a CPL holder can possess anyone's legally registered handgun.

    To the OP. You may wish to read the thread "OC in a Public Library". It was active today. You'll understand why I said: Welcome to Lansing.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Now stainless, you know a CPL holder can possess anyone's legally registered handgun.
    .
    Very true. I would have to assume that these, people, would not have a CPL. If they did, a charge of assault and battery would cause them some problems.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 01-14-2011 at 08:20 PM.

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    stainless1911:

    Thank you for your Reply, I tried to Reason with them, but they would not Listen to me.

    aadvark

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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    The rule prohibits any weapons that are prohibited by the City of Big Rapids. Does the city of big rapids have an illegal ordinance? If not the library rule would not apply would it?

    "Any firearm, knife, or other weapon prohibited in a public place by the City of Big Rapids Ordinances."

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    The City of Big Rapids HAS some Firearm-Related Ordinances, however; most are Misleading as they Start by Stating: [Except as otherwise Permitted by State Law,...]

    This is Legal Double-Speak for: Although we Forbid it, Michigan Allows it, therefore; our Ordinance is Meaningless.

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    I dug through the Big Rapids Ordinances. Then again, there isn't a search feature so it is a bit arduous reading them. I find this ordinance objectionable. It doesn't specifically say firearm, but I would imagine a firearm falls under "dangerous weapon" or "other item designed primarily for the purpose of injuring other persons ."


    130.04 BREACH OF THE PEACE OFFENSES.

    No person shall:

    (K) Carry or otherwise possess a concealed
    dangerous weapon, including firearms, knives, brass
    knuckles, black jacks or any other item designed
    primarily for the purpose of injuring other persons

    http://www.ci.big-rapids.mi.us/pdfs/...Title_XIII.pdf

  13. #13
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    I dug through the Big Rapids Ordinances. Then again, there isn't a search feature so it is a bit arduous reading them. I find this ordinance objectionable. It doesn't specifically say firearm, but I would imagine a firearm falls under "dangerous weapon" or "other item designed primarily for the purpose of injuring other persons ."


    130.04 BREACH OF THE PEACE OFFENSES.

    No person shall:

    (K) Carry or otherwise possess a concealed
    dangerous weapon, including firearms, knives, brass
    knuckles, black jacks or any other item designed
    primarily for the purpose of injuring other persons

    http://www.ci.big-rapids.mi.us/pdfs/...Title_XIII.pdf
    "including firearms"
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Ok. I've officially gone blind. Or blame Randy for keeping me at the bar until after closing for his B-day last night. I'm old and tired. Thanks for pointing out my error Q.

  15. #15
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Hmmm I will have to research the ordinances and see if I can dig up all the locations they are in violation with preemption.

    To the OP if you can help me by locating a PDF or hard copy of the entire code of ordinance for Big Rapids that would help. A copy of the library rules would help too.

    Then we can figure out what a letter to the Library board, City Manager and Attorney and council should say.

    As I am not there you will have to be my eyes and ears.

    As for the comment about good luck getting help from MOC... I am not going to do all the work for a person but I and MOC will do our best within reason to help.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  16. #16
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    I would be happy to contact the city same as I'm doing in Lansing.

    Three questions:

    Is the BR library owned and operated by the City?

    Or is it an authority?

    Is the library on school property or leased from a school district?

    Also if the OP can find out these three things and a contact for the Mayor, City attorney and the Librarian PM me with their contact info.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  17. #17
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Don't ask the question of whether the Library is an "authority"... makes no difference and this opens us up to hearing " an 'authority' is not a local unit of government"... I call BS. We have discussed the issue before. The power of an "authority" is derived from those entities making up an "authority"

    "Any municipal corporation shall have power to join with any other municipal
    corporation, or with any number or combination thereof by contract, or
    otherwise as may be permitted by law, for the ownership, operation, or
    performance, jointly, or by any 1 or more on behalf of all, of any property,
    facility or service which each would have the power to own, operate or perform
    separately
    ." further, "Nothing contained in this act shall be construed as to
    grant to municipal corporations acting jointly any power or authority which they
    do not have acting singly."

    (INTERGOVERNMENTAL CONTRACTS BETWEEN MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS, Act 35 of 1951)

    Therefore, even if a school is part of an authority, the fact the city/township/village/ county is also part of the 'authority" does not just magically allow them to ban firearms.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 01-15-2011 at 02:29 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Don't ask the question of whether the Library is an "authority"... makes no difference and this opens us up to hearing " an 'authority' is not a local unit of government"... I call BS. We have discussed the issue before. The power of an "authority" is derived from those entities making up an "authority"

    "Any municipal corporation shall have power to join with any other municipal
    corporation, or with any number or combination thereof by contract, or
    otherwise as may be permitted by law, for the ownership, operation, or
    performance, jointly, or by any 1 or more on behalf of all, of any property,
    facility or service which each would have the power to own, operate or perform
    separately." further, "Nothing contained in this act shall be construed as to
    grant to municipal corporations acting jointly any power or authority which they
    do not have acting singly."
    (INTERGOVERNMENTAL CONTRACTS BETWEEN MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS, Act 35 of 1951)

    Therefore, even if a school is part of an authority, the fact the city/township/village/ county is also part of the 'authority" does not just magically allow them to ban firearms.
    I know, but the Lansing library is claiming they are not a local government because they are an authority.

    After some research the BR library is indeed run by the city and I can find no evidence of an authority. In fact they are using the city ordinance on no firearms as their ability to ban guns, so it's a slam dunk, they are in violation.

    The Big Rapids Community Library also specifically prohibits possession of any of the following items on Library premises:
    Any firearm, knife, or other weapon prohibited in a public place by the City of Big Rapids Ordinances.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  19. #19
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Draft letter

    Big Rapids Community Library
    426 S. Michigan
    Big Rapids, MI

    Dear Chairperson Jerena Keys:

    As Research Director for Michigan Open Carry, Inc. (MOC.Inc). I am inquiring about the firearm ban in your library. Recently a citizen inquired about your unlawful prohibition of firearms and was told by the librarian and the police that the city has an ordinance against firearms in public buildings. Your policy and the city ordinance follows.

    The Big Rapids Community Library also specifically prohibits possession of any of the following items on Library premises:
    Any firearm, knife, or other weapon prohibited in a public place by the City of Big Rapids Ordinances.
    130.04 BREACH OF THE PEACE OFFENSES.

    No person shall:

    (K) Carry or otherwise possess a concealed dangerous weapon, including firearms, knives, brass
    knuckles, black jacks or any other item designed primarily for the purpose of injuring other persons.

    As you may know in 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    In fact the Michigan Court of Appeals ruled on this in City of Ferndale vs. MCRGO’s. This case involved a local library’s ban on firearms. The court decided that the library could not ban firearms as they were a part of a local government. Below are some excerpts from the decision.

    THE MICHIGAN COURT OF APPEALS CONCLUDED:
    April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237

    In sum, we conclude that 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

    Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of 1102, do not repeal 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.

    Therefore it has been decide in the courts and by statute that you cannot ban firearms from any public library. MOC, Inc. is asking you to advise your staff on this issue and if needed to remove any signage banning firearms from your libraries.

    I ask that you respond with your compliance within 5 business days. Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.
    Last edited by Venator; 01-15-2011 at 02:56 PM.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  20. #20
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    Sounds good to me Venator !

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Email Sent

    Found all the information we need right here. I also sent them an email to the commissioner, police department.

    http://www.ci.big-rapids.mi.us/Code_Of_Ordinances.aspx

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Nice job Ven!! Thank you for looking into this today as I was out of the office so to speak most of the day helping my brother with a new rifle and sighting in a new hunting setup for myself.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  23. #23
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    Were you in lapeer by chance? I spent a good part of the afternoon up there today.

  24. #24
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    No I was at my Club in Coloma MI.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  25. #25
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Therefore it has been decided in the courts and by statute that a public library cannot ban firearms. MOC, Inc. is asking you to advise your staff on this issue and if needed to remove any signage banning firearms from your libraries.
    My suggestions in red.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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