Haven't been stopped. Yet.

Freedom First · Jan 15, 2011

But I have talked to several LEO while working at my job (phone tech) and I wonder at the immediate resistance response many OCers write about here. Sure they are detaining me, big deal. I'm not breaking the law and I won't be charged with something meaningless by complying to basic commands as they sort out whatever issue they have with me or my firearm. They (LEO) are the guys putting it on the line daily and they don't know me from Adam. Maybe I am ignorant or naive but I think we want them on our side, not seeing us as a combatant, verbal or otherwise.

I OC/CC to protect my family and my Rights and while I understand the 4A issue with a "unlawful" stop, most of these guys are just doing their job. When/if I am stopped I will comply and use the opportunity to make a friendly contact in LE rather than setting the officer on the course of thinking "they're all 2A jerks." That's the danger I see in pushing the "Am I being detained?" line out first.

Just my two cents and I choose my means of expressing my choice to carry. You all can do whatever you want. It's called Freedom! Have a great weekend!

eye95 · Jan 15, 2011

Thanks.

Every time you submit to an unlawful detention, you increase the chance that another of us will be unlawfully detained. Thanks a lot.

You don't have to be an *** about it, but you should definitely exert your rights and point out that the officers are breaking the law. You can do this civilly. So far, I have been illegally detained twice. There was no need to be rude, but I clearly indicated that I knew the law and that the officers were breaking it.

The phrase, "I do not consent, but will not resist," was my ever-present friend. When the officer said something untrue about the law, I politely pointed out that it was untrue. I made sure that I mentioned that the detention was not justified without RAS.

Both detentions were amiable, with no harsh recriminations, just matter-of-factly expressed ideas. (Actually, many here could learn a thing or two about disagreeing, even with someone who is so horribly misinformed, civilly.)

The net result is that Montgomery PD has changed its policy and training. There are fewer and fewer uninformed members of the department. Soon there will only be the rogues who deliberately overstep their authority. They will be sued because they will do a lot more than just unlawfully detain OCers.

There is a fine line between exerting your rights and being an ***, but, for the sake of the rest of us, don't submit!! Instead, exert your rights.

p85 · Jan 15, 2011

its all in how you respond

I have found in the few stops I have been involved with in the past few years, that how you present yourself initially makes all the difference. Granted, none of the stops were from anything I did wrong. Here in NC, you must notiify the leo that you are carrying concealed if so or have the weapon in plain sight if not.

First time, I was carrying openly and was stopped in a license checkpoint. (lets not debate the type of stop) My pistol was on the console ledge of the chevy astro van I was driving. The officer saw it and said nothing about it. He checked my license and registration and I went on my way.

The second time, a NC state trooper again was involved with a license check. I was carrying concealed (with permit) and when he approached my window, I calmly stated that I was required by law to inform him that I had a carry permit and was indeed carrying. He looked over my license and carry permit and returned them to me. With a smile, he said "have a nice day" and off I went.

The third time, a combined sheriff and state trooper license checkpoint, while I was carrying concealed. Again the deputy approached the car and I calmly informed him that I had a permit and was carrying. He asked where it was and I told him that it was in a shoulder holster. Again, no problems and I was on my way.

What is the common theme in these stops? First, I was civil with the leo and followed the law in how I was in possession with a weapon. Second, none of the stops were a result of my breaking a law (speeding, etc.)

I am a firm believer that how you present yourself determines how you will be treated during a stop. Calm, cool and collected beats having an attitude.

I am not saying that were the situation were to escalate to an infringement of my 4A rights that I would bow down. I am saying that most times it wont get to that point if you approach it correctly.

Freedom First · Jan 15, 2011

Different strokes...

eye95 said:
Thanks.

Every time you submit to an unlawful detention, you increase the chance that another of us will be unlawfully detained. Thanks a lot.

You don't have to be an *** about it, but you should definitely exert your rights and point out that the officers are breaking the law. You can do this civilly. So far, I have been illegally detained twice. There was no need to be rude, but I clearly indicated that I knew the law and that the officers were breaking it.

The phrase, "I do not consent, but will not resist," was my ever-present friend. When the officer said something untrue about the law, I politely pointed out that it was untrue. I made sure that I mentioned that the detention was not justified without RAS.

Both detentions were amiable, with no harsh recriminations, just matter-of-factly expressed ideas. (Actually, many here could learn a thing or two about disagreeing, even with someone who is so horribly misinformed, civilly.)

The net result is that Montgomery PD has changed its policy and training. There are fewer and fewer uninformed members of the department. Soon there will only be the rogues who deliberately overstep their authority. They will be sued because they will do a lot more than just unlawfully detain OCers.

There is a fine line between exerting your rights and being an ***, but, for the sake of the rest of us, don't submit!! Instead, exert your rights.

eye95 is displeased with my choices. I am glad he does... In a country of 330 million people, there is room for multiple approaches to most issues. And I do live on the left coast where things are a bit different.

I don't believe we are in a war for our Rights WITH THE POLICE. The true issue lies elsewhere (subject of another coming thread). I am sorry if you disagree, and maybe I am wrong but the need to assert my Rights can be done conversationally in the process and followup of an "unlawful" stop. I have read about folks not speaking to police (5A) or arguing with them about point of case law regarding 4A and thus adding confusion and additional stress to the man on the other side of that blue line. Generally, he's just trying to find out if I am the next Arizona shooter...

I have four kids and a wonderful wife. I will be returning to them daily. I have no intention TODAY of winding up in jail as there is still much to do regarding ALL of my Rights. I have a different point of view and that is where I make my decisions.

Maybe the confrontational but cordial attitude is needed in AL but here in Eastern Washington State things are a little different. LEO doesn't really need that and I just need the video and contact with his superiors later.

Just yesterday I finished listening to "Civil Disobedience" by Thoreau for the third time. According to him, I am wrong as well but I don't plan on never changing either. But rather, today, I see the need to convert LEO rather than resisting him in the course of his "duties". To draw him to change and knowledge with civility rather than beating him into shape with the letter of the law.

And again, it's my opinion and my choice. Freedom, remember?

VW_Factor · Jan 15, 2011

I can see where it is good to be cooperative.. But to a point. I really believe that after mentioning that you do not consent. I may hand over my ID. Afterwards, what I am upto or what am I doing, etc? Yer getting nothin from me.

This is mostly looking back at my experiences when I was younger. I wasn't so much a troublemaker, however the crowd I hung out with were. I will show you who I am (this is more dependant to me, on the attitude of the LEO when I am approached), but beyond that. You don't need to know anything else, or search anything else. Not without a warrant.

Its all just if I knew then, what I know now.

eye95 · Jan 15, 2011

p85 said:
I have found in the few stops I have been involved with in the past few years, that how you present yourself initially makes all the difference. Granted, none of the stops were from anything I did wrong. Here in NC, you must notiify the leo that you are carrying concealed if so or have the weapon in plain sight if not.

First time, I was carrying openly and was stopped in a license checkpoint. (lets not debate the type of stop) My pistol was on the console ledge of the chevy astro van I was driving. The officer saw it and said nothing about it. He checked my license and registration and I went on my way.

The second time, a NC state trooper again was involved with a license check. I was carrying concealed (with permit) and when he approached my window, I calmly stated that I was required by law to inform him that I had a carry permit and was indeed carrying. He looked over my license and carry permit and returned them to me. With a smile, he said "have a nice day" and off I went.

The third time, a combined sheriff and state trooper license checkpoint, while I was carrying concealed. Again the deputy approached the car and I calmly informed him that I had a permit and was carrying. He asked where it was and I told him that it was in a shoulder holster. Again, no problems and I was on my way.

What is the common theme in these stops? First, I was civil with the leo and followed the law in how I was in possession with a weapon. Second, none of the stops were a result of my breaking a law (speeding, etc.)

I am a firm believer that how you present yourself determines how you will be treated during a stop. Calm, cool and collected beats having an attitude.

I am not saying that were the situation were to escalate to an infringement of my 4A rights that I would bow down. I am saying that most times it wont get to that point if you approach it correctly.

You handled the situations well. However, none of them was a LEO stopping you for open carry, which, at least where I live, is unlawful. I will be friendly in all cases, but I will be less assertive if I am not being stopped for open carry.

sudden valley gunner · Jan 16, 2011

I agree with Eye on this one. Would you 'cooperate' because you didn't fit in, because of the clothes you wear, or the color of your skin, or your gender?

Polite, but firm refusal to unwarranted intrusions, are the best action.

Otherwise you are conditionally training the police that they are right in demanding things they have no right to demand, so the next guy after you has a harder time standing up against these unwarranted intrusions.

SouthernBoy · Jan 16, 2011

Good thread, good points on both sides of the issue, and what is best... civility lives, at least so far.

I am more in line with eye95 and some of the other like-minded folks on this one. While I have never had an altercation of any kind with an LEO while carrying, I suspect there may come a time. I would like to think that I would be polite but reasonably firm so that the officer would know with whom he's dealing. The, "I do not consent to being disarmed but I will not resist you from doing this" is the stand I would want to take, recording it of course.

Police win by intimidation and the danger is you just might get an LEO of questionable character who decides you're his target for the evening. I think sudden valley gunner hit the nail on the head with these two statements.

"Polite, but firm refusal to unwarranted intrusions, are the best action.

Otherwise you are conditionally training the police that they are right in demanding things they have no right to demand, so the next guy after you has a harder time standing up against these unwarranted intrusions."

I would add one more from one of our members postings of a few months ago. Instead of asking the LEO, "Am I being detained?", ask him this, "Why am I being detained?". This minor alteration to the question changes the entire spectrum of the detainment. You are asking him to articulate his reason for detaining you and you will either get; 1) No answer, 2) A muddled or wrong answer, or 3) What he perceives to be the correct answer.

Finally, one should never forget that the police work for us. They are there at our pleasure with authority and power lent them by us to carry out the laws of our state. It is incumbent upon us to see they operate within the bounds which we have allowed and to honor their oath to our state Constitution.

since9 · Jan 17, 2011

I haven't been stopped yet, either, but I have now had three encounters with local law enforcement (parking lots, Wendy's) while carrying recently, and another decades ago at a pizza place in Spokane.

I think what put them at ease was that I was both cordial and at ease. If you don't ping on their radar, then they'll you're not a threat to them.

Yes, Youtube is full of videos where routine stops got ugly in a hurry. Still how many thousands of viral videos are out there compared to how many stops are actually performed in a day that didn't get ugly? One in ten? A hundred? A thousand?

Let's make it one in a million, and no, that doesn't involve giving up any of your rights. There are ways to be reassuring and respectful while holding onto one's rights.

If you think you're at risk of your rights being violated anyway, simply carry a video recorder and comply - if they do something that oversteps the line, that'll be their bad, and they'll pay the price, and without having given them any ability to tack extra charges like resisting arrest or being uncooperative onto the situation.

sudden valley gunner · Jan 18, 2011

since9 said:
If you think you're at risk of your rights being violated anyway, simply carry a video recorder and comply - if they do something that oversteps the line, that'll be their bad, and they'll pay the price, and without having given them any ability to tack extra charges like resisting arrest or being uncooperative onto the situation.

I disagree with the wording "comply", Don't physically resist, but politely and firmly don't comply.

eye95 · Jan 18, 2011

since9 said:
...If you think you're at risk of your rights being violated anyway, simply carry a video recorder and comply...

I would have said, "If you think you're at risk of your rights being violated anyway, simply carry a video recorder, state your lack of consent clearly, and do not resist."

Freedom First · Jun 15, 2011

I must love being wrong...

eye95 said:
Every time you submit to an unlawful detention, you increase the chance that another of us will be unlawfully detained. Thanks a lot.

You don't have to be an *** about it, but you should definitely exert your rights and point out that the officers are breaking the law. You can do this civilly. So far, I have been illegally detained twice. There was no need to be rude, but I clearly indicated that I knew the law and that the officers were breaking it.

The phrase, "I do not consent, but will not resist," was my ever-present friend. When the officer said something untrue about the law, I politely pointed out that it was untrue. I made sure that I mentioned that the detention was not justified without RAS.

Both detentions were amiable, with no harsh recriminations, just matter-of-factly expressed ideas. (Actually, many here could learn a thing or two about disagreeing, even with someone who is so horribly misinformed, civilly.)

The net result is that Montgomery PD has changed its policy and training. There are fewer and fewer uninformed members of the department. Soon there will only be the rogues who deliberately overstep their authority. They will be sued because they will do a lot more than just unlawfully detain OCers.

There is a fine line between exerting your rights and being an ***, but, for the sake of the rest of us, don't submit!! Instead, exert your rights.

In light of my current situation, you are completely right and I was naive and wrong in the original posting. Thanks for your painful honesty. I have learned this lesson and am moving on to the next stage of actually exercising these Rights.

VW_Factor · Jun 15, 2011

eye95 said:
I would have said, "If you think you're at risk of your rights being violated anyway, simply carry a video recorder, state your lack of consent clearly, and do not resist."

This is the key. There is no way to stop a LEO from doing what he is going to do. Having a record of YOU not giving consent to whatever he is doing, and not physically resisting. I have not yet experienced an encounter where I need to do so, however I am prepared for just that.

It is not being a dick or an ass to protect yourself, to know your rights, and to reiterate them to a LEO. He is only doing his job, and he should have the capability of dealing with it without acting like a 5 year old.

Haven't been stopped. Yet.

Freedom First

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eye95

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p85

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Freedom First

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sudden valley gunner

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