Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Restaurants, alcohol, and LSP, one more time

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,510

    Restaurants, alcohol, and LSP, one more time

    Just stirring this up one more time, due to conflicting information.

    Don't ask me how I got this, since I'm "banned" from the forum in question. I didn't post the question or have anything to do with it. I just wanted to let others read and comment on the latest LSP comment about guns in restaurants that serve alcohol. The post is quoted verbatim; any problems with terminology lie with the author.

    http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=495304#p495304
    just got off the phone with the Louisiana State Police - Concealed Handgun Unit (phone # 225-925-4867 if you want to verify it for yourself), and was told that in a restaurant that serves alcohol, unless such restaurant posts a sign prohibiting the carry of a concealed handgun, you are legally allowed to carry your concealed handgun into the restaurant, but you must not carry it into the bar area of the restaurant. I specifically used Joes Crabshack as an example, and was told "yes, you can carry into a restaurant, but not into the bar area".

    I'm of the opinion that the laws quoted above stating that any place selling alcohol for onsite consumption is off limits is a law for those who do not have a CHL. The CHL laws apply to a person carrying a handgun under the authority of their license. Again, this part is just my opinion, the previous paragraph is a fact given to me by the state police, and anyone who is curious is more than welcome to call that number and verify it. The lady who answered seemed very friendly.

  2. #2
    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Saint Gabriel, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    1,222
    That's pretty much the way it is. Having a CHP you can conceal carry in a resturant which serves alcohol as long as you don't sit in the Raised/Ropped off area for the bar. Open Carry is still not allowed in a resturant which serves alcohol for on site consumption.
    This is a major pet peeve of mine and I plan to petition the La Shooting Association to work to change this law in the next year or so.
    President/ Founding Member
    Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League
    www.laopencarry.org

  3. #3
    Regular Member DrakeXD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Marrero, Louisiana
    Posts
    35
    That's interesting to know. The laws themselves are a bit confusing to me when it came to this subject, so I just avoided carrying (OC or CC) into restaurants that serve alcohol. Now that it is cleared up I'll start carrying CC when I go out to dinner. Starting tonight!
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks." -Thomas Jefferson
    Vice President - Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League (LOCAL)
    LOCAL Pamphlet (Feel free to print and hand out)
    Students for Concealed Carry on Campus

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,510
    Well, that's how I thought it was, but it's been argued here, with legal cites, that anywhere that alcohol is served for on-premises consumption is off limits for guns.

    I guess my confusion comes from OC versus legal CC.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by yale View Post
    That's pretty much the way it is. Having a CHP you can conceal carry in a resturant which serves alcohol as long as you don't sit in the Raised/Ropped off area for the bar. Open Carry is still not allowed in a resturant which serves alcohol for on site consumption.
    This is a major pet peeve of mine and I plan to petition the La Shooting Association to work to change this law in the next year or so.
    Having just completed the concealed carry training yesterday that is not what we were told. We were told that you can conceal carry in any section of a restaurant like Applebees, Chilies, Hooters, etc.

  6. #6
    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Independence, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    566
    My wife will be taking a CC class next weekend, I'll ask her to check on that. (Along with the instructors thoughts on OC)

    As far as LSP's response to the question, yeah, we've all heard that their take on it is, that you can CC in a restaurant that serves alcohol but not in the bar area of said restaurant.

    And, those of us who have said permit have certainly done so.

    But I'm fairly certain this hasn't been tested in court and the law is ambiguous enough to have it go against you.
    So, CC if you can in such situations or go someplace where you can OC in peace (hopefully).

    Yeah Yale, I'd love to see LSA throw some weight at getting that law cleared up. It's an easy fix.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    2,464
    Suit can be filed by ANYONE with standing in this state in civil court for clarification of the law...

  8. #8
    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Independence, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    566
    Somehow I knew I was going to hear from brother Georg :-)

    Actually, let me clarify my own statement. I meant I'd like to see the law changed by the state legislature by their adding the appropriate language from RS 14:95.4 to RS 14:95.5. That's what I meant by "getting the law cleared up".
    It's a one line job and that's why I feel it would be an "easy fix".

    Georg, what is meant by "with standing in this state"?

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    2,464
    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Somehow I knew I was going to hear from brother Georg :-)

    Actually, let me clarify my own statement. I meant I'd like to see the law changed by the state legislature by their adding the appropriate language from RS 14:95.4 to RS 14:95.5. That's what I meant by "getting the law cleared up".
    It's a one line job and that's why I feel it would be an "easy fix".

    Georg, what is meant by "with standing in this state"?
    Always glad to hear from you brother Tdog...

    See what lectlaw has to say about the term "standing". http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s064.htm
    Note - this is the FEDERAL definition.

    Based on Lectlaw's definition, a person would probably not have standing unless thay posses a concealed carry license.

  10. #10
    Regular Member DrakeXD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Marrero, Louisiana
    Posts
    35
    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Always glad to hear from you brother Tdog...

    See what lectlaw has to say about the term "standing". http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s064.htm
    Note - this is the FEDERAL definition.

    Based on Lectlaw's definition, a person would probably not have standing unless thay posses a concealed carry license.
    I have standing, nice.

    So that means that if I chose to, I could file a suit with the court and ask for clarification on the law? What kind of monetary investment would be needed in order to have this done succesfully? Also, why hasn't anyone else done this yet?
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks." -Thomas Jefferson
    Vice President - Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League (LOCAL)
    LOCAL Pamphlet (Feel free to print and hand out)
    Students for Concealed Carry on Campus

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,510
    This is not an Open Carry event (but if you are comfortable doing so, feel free.. )

    My family and some friends and I will be at Crawdaddy's Kitchen in Shreveport on Mansfield Road today (Saturday), at roughly 5 p.m. We will probably be back on the patio, but we might find ourselves seated inside depending on the weather.

    Just ask for "The Craigs" if you want to join us. I'm 5'10", 250 pounds, short grey beard, probably wearing a dark brown leather jacket and a black knit cap. My wife is about a half inch shorter, loud and gregarious, sparkly glasses, life-of-the-party type. Our 8yo son will be with us, and we expect another couple and their 12yo daughter, and at least one other lady friend and possibly her fellow.

    Any OCDO friends in the S/BC area are welcome to come buy and meet up and enjoy some fellowship.

    Kevin

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    2,464
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeXD View Post
    I have standing, nice.

    So that means that if I chose to, I could file a suit with the court and ask for clarification on the law? What kind of monetary investment would be needed in order to have this done succesfully? Also, why hasn't anyone else done this yet?
    Great questions!!!

    YES!!! That's what the courts are there for...

    Monetary investment??? That depends on how much time YOU spend studying.

    Why hasn't anyone else done this yet?? For the GFSZ law I assume... I don't know everyone in the state or the country so I can only speculate...

    Perhaps maybe there are 2 valid reasons...

    1) If an attorney or attorneys are retained, the expense may be such that no one who cares about OCing has the means.
    2) It has been my experience that the average La. citizen is abysmally ignorant of the law and how our legal system works... so no non-attorney has the knowledge... yet.

    I can tell you specifically why I haven't done it...
    First off, I need to pick my battles. One pro se litigant is usually maxed out at a case level of 1 at a time. I'll leave it at that...
    Secondly, I still have a lot more to learn about federal civil rules of procedure... a fixable problem as long as I get off my ass and do the work...
    Last, I want to be sure that the fed GFSZ is actually what we want to go after and that if I do "go after it", that I have a legally sound argument. This is where LOCAL comes in... there are many threads, as you know, where we have discussed and where we can further discuss strategy and priority. Now that you've become our new LOCAL vice president, I'm looking forward to working with you to grow our various committees and help LOCAL become a relevant political force as well as a platform from which studious and motivated citizens can begin gaining a knowledge of the law and help others do the same.

  13. #13
    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Shreveport, LA
    Posts
    653
    Sorry we couldn't make it! Today was the birthday of the Aunt we are living with AND I had an old high school friend drive over to visit from Texas.
    Speedy: LOCAL League Sec/Treasurer, Information Officer
    AKA: Hero Hog, Dr. Speed, "The Brass Mangler" and "That fat, old, balding, Grey-bearded gimpy guy"

    I don't have NEAR enough ammo on hand. `nuff said.

    NRA Life Member, LSA, USN-DAV

    "Stay safe..." - Paul "Skidmark" Henick, RIP

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    My wife will be taking a CC class next weekend, I'll ask her to check on that. (Along with the instructors thoughts on OC)

    As far as LSP's response to the question, yeah, we've all heard that their take on it is, that you can CC in a restaurant that serves alcohol but not in the bar area of said restaurant.

    And, those of us who have said permit have certainly done so.

    But I'm fairly certain this hasn't been tested in court and the law is ambiguous enough to have it go against you.
    So, CC if you can in such situations or go someplace where you can OC in peace (hopefully).

    Yeah Yale, I'd love to see LSA throw some weight at getting that law cleared up. It's an easy fix.
    My instructor said that the issue has been reconsidered by LSP, what ever that means, because in a lot of restaurants you have to walk through the bar section to get to the rest room, That is the case at Acme Oyster House in Metairie.
    Last edited by buttanic; 01-29-2011 at 11:02 PM.

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran Freeflight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Yorktown VA, ,
    Posts
    306
    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    This is not an Open Carry event (but if you are comfortable doing so, feel free.. )

    My family and some friends and I will be at Crawdaddy's Kitchen in Shreveport on Mansfield Road today (Saturday), at roughly 5 p.m. We will probably be back on the patio, but we might find ourselves seated inside depending on the weather.

    Just ask for "The Craigs" if you want to join us. I'm 5'10", 250 pounds, short grey beard, probably wearing a dark brown leather jacket and a black knit cap. My wife is about a half inch shorter, loud and gregarious, sparkly glasses, life-of-the-party type. Our 8yo son will be with us, and we expect another couple and their 12yo daughter, and at least one other lady friend and possibly her fellow.

    Any OCDO friends in the S/BC area are welcome to come buy and meet up and enjoy some fellowship.

    Kevin
    I am totally BUMMED!!!'

    I am here in Shreveport right now at WK Hospital...

    We will be going to Crawdaddys... (my favorite place) we will be here for at least 2 weeks.. let me know if you all get together again...

    Sorry I missed ya!
    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

    Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

    Free Flight

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    America
    Posts
    2,226
    Anyone mind showing some court cases or citing laws? I was in your state recently and noticed the OCDO map had you guys as right denied instead of CC only. I unhappily disarmed before going to the restraunt. It sure would be nice to show some evidence that it is legal and then maybe get on the site administrator to fix the map.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    2,464
    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    Anyone mind showing some court cases or citing laws? I was in your state recently and noticed the OCDO map had you guys as right denied instead of CC only. I unhappily disarmed before going to the restraunt. It sure would be nice to show some evidence that it is legal and then maybe get on the site administrator to fix the map.
    Here's is the evidence...

    11. Right to Keep and Bear Arms

    Section 11. The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person.

    The state has NOT been given authority to regulate ANYTHING about keeping and bearing arms except where it pertains to concealed carry...

    Any regulation outside of concealed carry is illegal.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,510
    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    Anyone mind showing some court cases or citing laws? I was in your state recently and noticed the OCDO map had you guys as right denied instead of CC only. I unhappily disarmed before going to the restraunt. It sure would be nice to show some evidence that it is legal and then maybe get on the site administrator to fix the map.
    The problem is that Louisiana has conflicting laws. I am not familiar enough with the LRS to quote them, and I don't have the relevant sections bookmarked. Hopefully someone will come along to cite them.

    I don't know of any court cases dealing with the conflict, but my ignorance doesn't mean there isn't a precedent.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    2,464
    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    The problem is that Louisiana has conflicting laws. I am not familiar enough with the LRS to quote them, and I don't have the relevant sections bookmarked. Hopefully someone will come along to cite them.

    I don't know of any court cases dealing with the conflict, but my ignorance doesn't mean there isn't a precedent.
    Here's the conflicting law... RS 14:95.4 http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78743

    It is interesting to note that not only does the legislature blatantly seize authority it doesn't have by regulating a constitutionally protected activity inside a "alcoholic beverage outlet" but they have also decided to do away with warrants or reasonable suspicion int these "outlets" by the stroke of a pen. Hmmm... ya see, it's the LA Const that created the state legislature in the first place... see...

    http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=206405

    So let's see if this makes sense... The people agree on and ratify a state constitution. That constitution then provides for the authority of a legislature and then that legislature ignores selective parts of the constitution. I wonder what would happen if they ignored Article 3??? Would they just disappear?? Probably not... but ignoring ANY part of the constitution is just as ridiculous. The legislature gets away with crap like this because the people are too stupid or complacent to stop them.

    Here's an instance where a citizen was arrested for violating 14:95.4 though it appears he was not charged with 14:95.1 but 14:95(E) instead. I don't see where the actual arrest was challenged so it would appear one should expect to be arrested in any "alcoholic beverage outlet" as defined in 14:95.4... see... http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...en&as_sdt=4,19

    I have been searching for over a year now and I can't find a single case on appeal for a conviction of violating 14:95.4. If anyone has found such a case please post.

    This appears to be just another case of the legislature usurping power and we are simply letting them.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    55

    chl/bar

    if i understand what you sai is a law for people who DO NOT HAVE achl they cant carry in a bar

    for those that dont have a CHL they cant carriy anywhere legally but on the other hand they can carry anywhere they care to because the law dont mean spit to them

    laws are only for those who abide by the laws hince they cant carry into a bar

    what the LSP said is you can carry in a place where food in the primary sale along with booz but not in a bar that also serve food

  21. #21
    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Independence, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    566
    Quote Originally Posted by kimber10mm View Post
    for those that dont have a CHL they cant carriy anywhere legally but on the other hand they can carry anywhere they care to because the law dont mean spit to them
    I don't quite get this statement. Can you clarify please?

  22. #22
    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Saint Gabriel, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    1,222
    Kimber, the problem for OCers is that even if we don't plan on drinking we can't OC in most resturants in this State because the law clearly says that we can't carry where alcohol is served. We need this changed and I'm hoping the LSA will take up the fight.
    President/ Founding Member
    Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League
    www.laopencarry.org

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •