Restaurants, alcohol, and LSP, one more time

Just stirring this up one more time, due to conflicting information.

Don't ask me how I got this, since I'm "banned" from the forum in question. I didn't post the question or have anything to do with it. I just wanted to let others read and comment on the latest LSP comment about guns in restaurants that serve alcohol. The post is quoted verbatim; any problems with terminology lie with the author.

http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=495304#p495304

just got off the phone with the Louisiana State Police - Concealed Handgun Unit (phone # 225-925-4867 if you want to verify it for yourself), and was told that in a restaurant that serves alcohol, unless such restaurant posts a sign prohibiting the carry of a concealed handgun, you are legally allowed to carry your concealed handgun into the restaurant, but you must not carry it into the bar area of the restaurant. I specifically used Joes Crabshack as an example, and was told "yes, you can carry into a restaurant, but not into the bar area".

I'm of the opinion that the laws quoted above stating that any place selling alcohol for onsite consumption is off limits is a law for those who do not have a CHL. The CHL laws apply to a person carrying a handgun under the authority of their license. Again, this part is just my opinion, the previous paragraph is a fact given to me by the state police, and anyone who is curious is more than welcome to call that number and verify it. The lady who answered seemed very friendly.

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That's pretty much the way it is. Having a CHP you can conceal carry in a resturant which serves alcohol as long as you don't sit in the Raised/Ropped off area for the bar. Open Carry is still not allowed in a resturant which serves alcohol for on site consumption.
This is a major pet peeve of mine and I plan to petition the La Shooting Association to work to change this law in the next year or so.

That's interesting to know. The laws themselves are a bit confusing to me when it came to this subject, so I just avoided carrying (OC or CC) into restaurants that serve alcohol. Now that it is cleared up I'll start carrying CC when I go out to dinner. Starting tonight!

Well, that's how I thought it was, but it's been argued here, with legal cites, that anywhere that alcohol is served for on-premises consumption is off limits for guns.

I guess my confusion comes from OC versus legal CC.

yale said:

That's pretty much the way it is. Having a CHP you can conceal carry in a resturant which serves alcohol as long as you don't sit in the Raised/Ropped off area for the bar. Open Carry is still not allowed in a resturant which serves alcohol for on site consumption.
This is a major pet peeve of mine and I plan to petition the La Shooting Association to work to change this law in the next year or so.

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Having just completed the concealed carry training yesterday that is not what we were told. We were told that you can conceal carry in any section of a restaurant like Applebees, Chilies, Hooters, etc.

My wife will be taking a CC class next weekend, I'll ask her to check on that. (Along with the instructors thoughts on OC)

As far as LSP's response to the question, yeah, we've all heard that their take on it is, that you can CC in a restaurant that serves alcohol but not in the bar area of said restaurant.

And, those of us who have said permit have certainly done so.

But I'm fairly certain this hasn't been tested in court and the law is ambiguous enough to have it go against you.
So, CC if you can in such situations or go someplace where you can OC in peace (hopefully).

Yeah Yale, I'd love to see LSA throw some weight at getting that law cleared up. It's an easy fix.

Suit can be filed by ANYONE with standing in this state in civil court for clarification of the law...

Somehow I knew I was going to hear from brother Georg

Actually, let me clarify my own statement. I meant I'd like to see the law changed by the state legislature by their adding the appropriate language from RS 14:95.4 to RS 14:95.5. That's what I meant by "getting the law cleared up".
It's a one line job and that's why I feel it would be an "easy fix".

Georg, what is meant by "with standing in this state"?

turbodog said:

Somehow I knew I was going to hear from brother Georg

Actually, let me clarify my own statement. I meant I'd like to see the law changed by the state legislature by their adding the appropriate language from RS 14:95.4 to RS 14:95.5. That's what I meant by "getting the law cleared up".
It's a one line job and that's why I feel it would be an "easy fix".

Georg, what is meant by "with standing in this state"?

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Always glad to hear from you brother Tdog...

See what lectlaw has to say about the term "standing". http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s064.htm
Note - this is the FEDERAL definition.

Based on Lectlaw's definition, a person would probably not have standing unless thay posses a concealed carry license.

georg jetson said:

Always glad to hear from you brother Tdog...

See what lectlaw has to say about the term "standing". http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s064.htm
Note - this is the FEDERAL definition.

Based on Lectlaw's definition, a person would probably not have standing unless thay posses a concealed carry license.

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I have standing, nice.

So that means that if I chose to, I could file a suit with the court and ask for clarification on the law? What kind of monetary investment would be needed in order to have this done succesfully? Also, why hasn't anyone else done this yet?

This is not an Open Carry event (but if you are comfortable doing so, feel free.. )

My family and some friends and I will be at Crawdaddy's Kitchen in Shreveport on Mansfield Road today (Saturday), at roughly 5 p.m. We will probably be back on the patio, but we might find ourselves seated inside depending on the weather.

Just ask for "The Craigs" if you want to join us. I'm 5'10", 250 pounds, short grey beard, probably wearing a dark brown leather jacket and a black knit cap. My wife is about a half inch shorter, loud and gregarious, sparkly glasses, life-of-the-party type. Our 8yo son will be with us, and we expect another couple and their 12yo daughter, and at least one other lady friend and possibly her fellow.

Any OCDO friends in the S/BC area are welcome to come buy and meet up and enjoy some fellowship.

Kevin

DrakeXD said:

I have standing, nice.

So that means that if I chose to, I could file a suit with the court and ask for clarification on the law? What kind of monetary investment would be needed in order to have this done succesfully? Also, why hasn't anyone else done this yet?

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Great questions!!!

YES!!! That's what the courts are there for...

Monetary investment??? That depends on how much time YOU spend studying.

Why hasn't anyone else done this yet?? For the GFSZ law I assume... I don't know everyone in the state or the country so I can only speculate...

Perhaps maybe there are 2 valid reasons...

1) If an attorney or attorneys are retained, the expense may be such that no one who cares about OCing has the means.
2) It has been my experience that the average La. citizen is abysmally ignorant of the law and how our legal system works... so no non-attorney has the knowledge... yet.

I can tell you specifically why I haven't done it...
First off, I need to pick my battles. One pro se litigant is usually maxed out at a case level of 1 at a time. I'll leave it at that...
Secondly, I still have a lot more to learn about federal civil rules of procedure... a fixable problem as long as I get off my ass and do the work...
Last, I want to be sure that the fed GFSZ is actually what we want to go after and that if I do "go after it", that I have a legally sound argument. This is where LOCAL comes in... there are many threads, as you know, where we have discussed and where we can further discuss strategy and priority. Now that you've become our new LOCAL vice president, I'm looking forward to working with you to grow our various committees and help LOCAL become a relevant political force as well as a platform from which studious and motivated citizens can begin gaining a knowledge of the law and help others do the same.

Sorry we couldn't make it! Today was the birthday of the Aunt we are living with AND I had an old high school friend drive over to visit from Texas.

turbodog said:

My wife will be taking a CC class next weekend, I'll ask her to check on that. (Along with the instructors thoughts on OC)

As far as LSP's response to the question, yeah, we've all heard that their take on it is, that you can CC in a restaurant that serves alcohol but not in the bar area of said restaurant.

And, those of us who have said permit have certainly done so.

But I'm fairly certain this hasn't been tested in court and the law is ambiguous enough to have it go against you.
So, CC if you can in such situations or go someplace where you can OC in peace (hopefully).

Yeah Yale, I'd love to see LSA throw some weight at getting that law cleared up. It's an easy fix.

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My instructor said that the issue has been reconsidered by LSP, what ever that means, because in a lot of restaurants you have to walk through the bar section to get to the rest room, That is the case at Acme Oyster House in Metairie.

KBCraig said:

This is not an Open Carry event (but if you are comfortable doing so, feel free.. )

My family and some friends and I will be at Crawdaddy's Kitchen in Shreveport on Mansfield Road today (Saturday), at roughly 5 p.m. We will probably be back on the patio, but we might find ourselves seated inside depending on the weather.

Just ask for "The Craigs" if you want to join us. I'm 5'10", 250 pounds, short grey beard, probably wearing a dark brown leather jacket and a black knit cap. My wife is about a half inch shorter, loud and gregarious, sparkly glasses, life-of-the-party type. Our 8yo son will be with us, and we expect another couple and their 12yo daughter, and at least one other lady friend and possibly her fellow.

Any OCDO friends in the S/BC area are welcome to come buy and meet up and enjoy some fellowship.

Kevin

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I am totally BUMMED!!!'

I am here in Shreveport right now at WK Hospital...

We will be going to Crawdaddys... (my favorite place) we will be here for at least 2 weeks.. let me know if you all get together again...

Sorry I missed ya!

Anyone mind showing some court cases or citing laws? I was in your state recently and noticed the OCDO map had you guys as right denied instead of CC only. I unhappily disarmed before going to the restraunt. It sure would be nice to show some evidence that it is legal and then maybe get on the site administrator to fix the map.

Daylen said:

Anyone mind showing some court cases or citing laws? I was in your state recently and noticed the OCDO map had you guys as right denied instead of CC only. I unhappily disarmed before going to the restraunt. It sure would be nice to show some evidence that it is legal and then maybe get on the site administrator to fix the map.

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Here's is the evidence...

§11. Right to Keep and Bear Arms

Section 11. The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person.

The state has NOT been given authority to regulate ANYTHING about keeping and bearing arms except where it pertains to concealed carry...

Any regulation outside of concealed carry is illegal.

Daylen said:

Anyone mind showing some court cases or citing laws? I was in your state recently and noticed the OCDO map had you guys as right denied instead of CC only. I unhappily disarmed before going to the restraunt. It sure would be nice to show some evidence that it is legal and then maybe get on the site administrator to fix the map.

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The problem is that Louisiana has conflicting laws. I am not familiar enough with the LRS to quote them, and I don't have the relevant sections bookmarked. Hopefully someone will come along to cite them.

I don't know of any court cases dealing with the conflict, but my ignorance doesn't mean there isn't a precedent.

KBCraig said:

The problem is that Louisiana has conflicting laws. I am not familiar enough with the LRS to quote them, and I don't have the relevant sections bookmarked. Hopefully someone will come along to cite them.

I don't know of any court cases dealing with the conflict, but my ignorance doesn't mean there isn't a precedent.

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Here's the conflicting law... RS 14:95.4 http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78743

It is interesting to note that not only does the legislature blatantly seize authority it doesn't have by regulating a constitutionally protected activity inside a "alcoholic beverage outlet" but they have also decided to do away with warrants or reasonable suspicion int these "outlets" by the stroke of a pen. Hmmm... ya see, it's the LA Const that created the state legislature in the first place... see...

http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=206405

So let's see if this makes sense... The people agree on and ratify a state constitution. That constitution then provides for the authority of a legislature and then that legislature ignores selective parts of the constitution. I wonder what would happen if they ignored Article 3??? Would they just disappear?? Probably not... but ignoring ANY part of the constitution is just as ridiculous. The legislature gets away with crap like this because the people are too stupid or complacent to stop them.

Here's an instance where a citizen was arrested for violating 14:95.4 though it appears he was not charged with 14:95.1 but 14:95(E) instead. I don't see where the actual arrest was challenged so it would appear one should expect to be arrested in any "alcoholic beverage outlet" as defined in 14:95.4... see... http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...q=louisiana+firearm+alcohol&hl=en&as_sdt=4,19

I have been searching for over a year now and I can't find a single case on appeal for a conviction of violating 14:95.4. If anyone has found such a case please post.

This appears to be just another case of the legislature usurping power and we are simply letting them.

chl/bar

if i understand what you sai is a law for people who DO NOT HAVE achl they cant carry in a bar

for those that dont have a CHL they cant carriy anywhere legally but on the other hand they can carry anywhere they care to because the law dont mean spit to them

laws are only for those who abide by the laws hince they cant carry into a bar

what the LSP said is you can carry in a place where food in the primary sale along with booz but not in a bar that also serve food