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Thread: USA Today debate features OpenCarry.org's John Pierce

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    USA Today debate features OpenCarry.org's John Pierce

    http://www.usatoday.com/video/index....F/749732239001 w/ video

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    Would tighter gun control prevent shootings like one in Tucson?Opencarry.org's John Pierce and Daniel Vice, senior attorney with the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, discuss mental-health pitfalls, laws that allow for purchase of military-style weapons and which is to blame for the Tucson shooting.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    already under discussion

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...+debates+brady

    That doesn't happen often, someone scooping you!
    Last edited by MKEgal; 01-16-2011 at 10:34 AM.
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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    John,

    Although my name has no affiliation with my past work, my last job was with the mental health center in Homer, Alaska.

    Many times I've heard over and over, "They[the Federal Government] never increase medicare or medicaid payouts", "Mental healthcare programs are shrinking", "mental healthcare isn't a focus of basic health", etc etc.

    In the US, mental healthcare is a seriously underfunded area. The government representatives have frequently neglected the area. Time and time again general health hospitals which have their own wards(beds) and they get the funds. Mental health isn't the same way, there is no way to make mental healthcare like general healthcare.

    Here's how intervention works:
    1) Person or family calls crisis hotline or comes in for an appointment during the 9-5 hours.
    2) If crisis hotline is called the on-call employee of a private company may be deployed. Many mental health companies don't care/won't come unless those hours are billable.
    3) Employee performs an evaluation and attempts to calm the individual down. These cases can be suicide, threats of harm, etc. Mind you these employees sometimes put their own lives at risk, much more than any general hospital employee. i.e. A provider's throat was sliced in Bethel, AK by a client. She bled out and died.
    4) If needed, the employee will do an "ex parte" order, sometimes waking up a judge from his sleep in order to evac the employee to the nearest hospital with mental health wards.

    Working at the mental health center gave me a different perspective of people, I was able to listen and talk with employees there about people.

    There are some people, war vets, who are affected so much by PTSD and other disorders where they are armed and a danger to the public. One guy told an employee he had his long gun pointed in to a hiker, thinking the hiker posed a threat, almost shooting the hiker. The guy realized what he was doing before anything bad happened.

    This is the type of situation people are placing others in, grave danger. By our complete lack of regard for mental health and professionals who are supposed to be getting such people declared as mentally adjudicated.

    You're right, no amount of gun laws will solve the problem. What needs to happen are stronger laws regarding healthcare and more funding on the federal level. We also newed laws holding professionals accountable if they neglect to exparte an individual who poses a threat like the war vet I mentioned.

    Sincerely,
    Insane Kangaroo

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    What happened was a tragedy, not a trend. The federal government should not take away from this event the feeling that they need to do more to protect us. Every time the feds try to protects us, they enslave us just a little bit more.

    Those who dealt with the shooter daily, noticed his growing mental illness, and did nothing need to examine their actions and motives. We all need to decide how we'll deal with any Loughners who pass through our lives. The school he attended needs to take a serious look at their inaction. Other schools need to decide how they will deal with students who show such blatant signs of mental illness.

    However, the feds should do nothing.

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    Regular Member cash50's Avatar
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    I like the civility both sides displayed, it's kind of uncommon for opposing viewpoints to not make up crap and whine and yell like sissies when making their arguments.

    That said, I wonder where the Brady Campaign came up with the magical number of 10 for maximum mag capacity. Is there some sort of statistics they are using? Why are high capacity mags inherently bad? Do they not understand how quick a reload is on modern handguns? Do they not realize that those 33 rounds Glock mags are impractical for regular carry anyways?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cash50 View Post
    I like the civility both sides displayed, it's kind of uncommon for opposing viewpoints to not make up crap and whine and yell like sissies when making their arguments.

    That said, I wonder where the Brady Campaign came up with the magical number of 10 for maximum mag capacity. Is there some sort of statistics they are using? Why are high capacity mags inherently bad? Do they not understand how quick a reload is on modern handguns? Do they not realize that those 33 rounds Glock mags are impractical for regular carry anyways?
    Simple answer: 10 is closer to zero than 33 is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cash50 View Post
    That said, I wonder where the Brady Campaign came up with the magical number of 10 for maximum mag capacity. Is there some sort of statistics they are using? Why are high capacity mags inherently bad? Do they not understand how quick a reload is on modern handguns? Do they not realize that those 33 rounds Glock mags are impractical for regular carry anyways?
    Bill Ruger, at one point in his lifetime, said in some form that "no civilian should have any need for more then 10 rounds at a time!"

    That, to me, seems to be where the magic limit of 10 comes from...the supposed "authority" on civilian firearm's jack-azz commentary. I find it mildly amusing that after Bill Ruger passed away in 02 and the 94 AWB died in 04 Sturm & Ruger, Co. immediately started selling "hi-cap" magazines to us irresponsible citizens...guess his company decided we might like to have more then 10 rounds at a time.

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    Regular Member DinFreemont's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnett3006 View Post
    Bill Ruger, at one point in his lifetime, said in some form that "no civilian should have any need for more then 10 rounds at a time!"

    That, to me, seems to be where the magic limit of 10 comes from...the supposed "authority" on civilian firearm's jack-azz commentary. I find it mildly amusing that after Bill Ruger passed away in 02 and the 94 AWB died in 04 Sturm & Ruger, Co. immediately started selling "hi-cap" magazines to us irresponsible citizens...guess his company decided we might like to have more then 10 rounds at a time.
    The Ruger company was hit in the pocketbook from upset gun buyers boycotting the products, until I see a complete repudiation of the anti-gun pro-statist positions of Bill Ruger by what is left of the company I will continue to boycott all Ruger products, and promote the idea - vote with your money.
    Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. – P.J. O'Rourke

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DinFreemont View Post
    The Ruger company was hit in the pocketbook from upset gun buyers boycotting the products, until I see a complete repudiation of the anti-gun pro-statist positions of Bill Ruger by what is left of the company I will continue to boycott all Ruger products, and promote the idea - vote with your money.
    Bill Ruger has passed on and left an indelible mark on the industry. I will not castigate the man nor his company when they have so obviously listened to and responded to their customers. ymmv
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member DinFreemont's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Bill Ruger has passed on and left an indelible mark on the industry. I will not castigate the man nor his company when they have so obviously listened to and responded to their customers. ymmv
    His most indelible mark had to be the Assault Weapons Ban, it was nice of him to write it so that his products would be the least effected (at least he thought so until the politicians finished writing it). I just could never see taking the NRA position on Ruger (ooh, money, money, money).

    "No honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun.”

    "I never meant for simple civilians to have my 20 or 30 round magazines or my folding stock.”
    - Bill Ruger

    Yes MMV... with my wallet.
    Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. – P.J. O'Rourke

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnett3006 View Post
    Bill Ruger, at one point in his lifetime, said in some form that "no civilian should have any need for more then 10 rounds at a time!"

    That, to me, seems to be where the magic limit of 10 comes from...the supposed "authority" on civilian firearm's jack-azz commentary. I find it mildly amusing that after Bill Ruger passed away in 02 and the 94 AWB died in 04 Sturm & Ruger, Co. immediately started selling "hi-cap" magazines to us irresponsible citizens...guess his company decided we might like to have more then 10 rounds at a time.
    Perhaps. However, it may also have merely been sales pitch talk for a company who, back then, was heavily vested in the six-round revolver market, and who'd only recently (at that time) begun expanding into the semi-auto pistol market. I don't care if they'd been manufacturing them since 1949. There's a huge difference between when a company starts manufacturing a line, and when they start marketing a line.

    On the other hand, according to one of our own, Ruger said:

    "No honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun.”

    "I never meant for simple civilians to have my 20 or 30 round magazines or my folding stock.” - Bill Ruger

    The PROBLEM with this is that I can't find Google hits substantiating either statement, except on OCDO or other gun sites. Meanwhile, when I type something off the top of my head, however, such as "Blue Whales are an endangered species" I get 4,550 hits.

    That's telling. It's telling me the quotes attributed to Ruger may have been fabricated, or at the very least (and most likely) either incorrectly or abhorrently (out of context of understanding) attributed to him with the same fervor as KKK lynchings in far darker times in our nation's past.

    If you have valid sources you'd like to share which prove otherwise, please do.

    Don't get me wrong! I found countless gun sites attributing this to Ruger, including this one, which is perhaps the best at citing reputable sources. However, even they failed to cite the "10 rounds" comment, a YouTube search on "Ruger Brokaw Interview" turned up "No video results for “ruger brokaw interview” and I've yet to find anything definitive, such as an interview with a well-known reporter, or a Ruger press release.

    I have a WIDE open mind, and believe pretty much anything withing the laws of physics is possible. But I'm not a sap, either, nor do I take things on the word of another (or even 20,000 others) that things are one way when the facts indicate they're another.

    Here's my take on Ruger's efforts: Even if he did actually make that statement, in the wake of rising antipathy towards "semi-autos" and "high capacity magazines," and in the face of a rising tide of anti-gunners who wanted to get rid of ALL handguns (including Rugers), Ruger enacted breakwaters (a comment about 10 rounds) to appease the anti-gunners' immediate interests while given enough breathing room and response time for the handgun industry to grow and strengthen (as it did) into a huge voice which has reversed many of the insane anti-gun measures and gained new ground with respect to our Second Amendment rights. One only has to look at the number of OC and CC states between 1990 and 2010 to tell that we've been very successful.

    So many of you are quick to hang 'em high, but so few of you recognize he used the same genius he used to build the industry to help the industry weather the storm of the anti-gunners.

    Even after 20 years, your 20/20 hindsight is looking more like 20/400. He handed us a wonderful gift-horse and all you can do is look it in the mouth. If our enemies had had their way, our horse would be DEAD. Ruger wasn't our enemy. He saw the handwriting on the wall very clearly, and acted accordingly.

    As a result, our horse is not dead. It's thriving. Did Ruger save it single-handedly? Heck no! But he certainly saw the handwriting on the walls and had a hand in slowing it's demise until we could rise up against the anti-gunner machine.

    Please shrug off your bigoted anti-Rugerisms, of which many may have been handed down to you as you weren't of age back in the 1980s, and open the other eye. Get glasses, if you must.

    Regardless, the utter hate some of you lavish on Ruger throughout this thread is unimaginable. It looks like a soap-towel party reminicent of Full Metal Jacket i.e. a pretty damned sick and disgusting way to villify another human being. I sincerely would have thought OCDO folks were smarter than this!

    Apparently not, at least for some of you. If you must hate something, hate this. It's least their actions are deserving of your vile. They're making Al Quaida look like Hervé Villechaize.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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