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Gun-happy SoCal police use excessive force to claim Reggie Doucet's life

Gaidheal

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Jan 26, 2011
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My honest opinion is that citizens should be free to reasonably arm themselves (I realize that 'reasonably' is a qualifier but this is what I actually think ought to be the case - precise details, well that takes some discussion and is a side issue).

The police (whether Sheriffs, State or whatever) should also, clearly, be able to arm themselves, possibly with somewhat easier access to firearms that would otherwise be more difficult to own or use practically (I realize I am sort of making a 'super-citizen' case here but bear in mind that we already give them powers that others do not have, subject to what follows...) however: I think they must be held to a higher standard. I think extensive training must be required in the use of firearms, melee weapons (such as batons) and unarmed hand-to-hand combat, with special emphasis on restraint techniques. I think that until they have received and qualified in such training, an individual officer must not be permitted to use them, furthermore I think there must be stringent rules on force levels for dealing with citizens who are not clearly and directly threatening the lives of others. No more shooting people who are waving swords. No more tasering of grannies who are shouting.

I especially think that treating someone who happens to be armed as if they are actually an immediate threat to your life must be stopped. I'm more dangerous with my hands, elbows, knees and feet, at an appropriate range, than most would-be pistol slingers are with their chosen weapon. No-one slams me to the ground every time I go to shake a hand because they're ignorant of these facts and it's the same ignorance and irrational fear that leads people to treat armed persons as if they are about to turn into a murderer.
 

eye95

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I think one of the funniest jokes in the movies and on TV, albeit becoming a bit cliche, is when some guy starts his kung pow schtick, and the good guy puts a cap in his *** and calmly walks away.

On topic, "reasonable" gun control (regulations) arrived at through discussion (then, presumably, a vote) is democracy. We should deplore democracy. It is a system whereby rights can be destroyed via "a discussion and a vote."

The right, as it was enshrined in the 2A, is uninfringeable, no matter how "reasonable" anyone (or the majority) thinks an infringement would be. That's kinda why, in a republic, we protect rights: we are mainly protecting them those who would vote them away.
 

Gaidheal

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Aye, that's always a fun joke but any real practitioner will be too close for someone to casually pull a gun and calmly shoot, of course. Most modern classes will also teach weapon control - how to keep any you have, how to take any they wield. Regardless, it's funny and not the topic. :¬)

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, of course but you seem to misunderstand what defines a republic and a democracy. The USA is both. Republics have a president as their head of state and some other form of legislating authority, which the president must either ratify or veto (usually thus sending it back for amendment and further discussion). Democracies elect their governments, in one fashion or another and vote on their laws, directly or indirectly. Rights are indeed rights, I was outlining what I think reasonable, not what the legal position actually is, however bear in mind that the constitution was arrived at through discussion and voting. Don't pretend to be ignorant of that, as you've demonstrated knowledge of the history before.
 

eye95

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Aye, that's always a fun joke but any real practitioner will be too close for someone to casually pull a gun and calmly shoot, of course. Most modern classes will also teach weapon control - how to keep any you have, how to take any they wield. Regardless, it's funny and not the topic. :¬)

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, of course but you seem to misunderstand what defines a republic and a democracy. The USA is both. Republics have a president as their head of state and some other form of legislating authority, which the president must either ratify or veto (usually thus sending it back for amendment and further discussion). Democracies elect their governments, in one fashion or another and vote on their laws, directly or indirectly. Rights are indeed rights, I was outlining what I think reasonable, not what the legal position actually is, however bear in mind that the constitution was arrived at through discussion and voting. Don't pretend to be ignorant of that, as you've demonstrated knowledge of the history before.

I am afraid that your "genius" does not extend to knowing what a democracy is. We are not one. We are a republic with some democratic processes. That does not make us a democracy. Thank God. Rights are not protected at all in a democracy.

On edit: Nor does it extend to your knowing what a republic is. What makes a republic is representative government. It is primarily the Congress that makes us a republic, not the existence of the presidency.

Moving on.
 
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Gaidheal

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Sorry, eye, but that's just not correct. They are not mutually exclusive and certainly not contrastable. The USA calls itself a republic now but the term wasn't even really used for it until the late 19th C. Really, there was only one person who ever tried to define the USA as being specifically a republic and contrasting that with what he called a democracy; however his choices of defintion just don't bear out and are by no means universal. That man was James Madison, of course.

I'm afraid that the USA is most assuredly a 'representative democracy' (since the people elect representatives, who then themselves votes on legislation). Some states operate much closer to a 'direct democracy' within the state, for example Arizona and California with their 'propositions' and Sheriffs are elected, too, of course.

My genius is quite safe, thanks. ;¬)

P.S. What makes you a republic is having an elected head of state, as opposed to a monarchy. It goes right back to Rome and Greece.
 

rodbender

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Navasota, Texas, USA
The USA calls itself a republic now but the term wasn't even really used for it until the late 19th C.

Some states operate much closer to a 'direct democracy' within the state, for example Arizona and California with their 'propositions' and Sheriffs are elected, too, of course.

My genius is quite safe, thanks. ;¬)

P.S. What makes you a republic is having an elected head of state, as opposed to a monarchy. It goes right back to Rome and Greece.

When Benjamin Franklin emerged from the Constitutional Convenention a lady asked, "What do we have?" Ben Franklin replied, " A republic, if you can keep it, ma'am." That was 1787. I rarely use republic to describe the U.S.A.. I will normally use a federation. That's what we actually are. A federation of 50 different countries.

The propositions you refer to is simply the petition for certain items to be voted on to be added to the state Constitution. These are not laws, they are Constitutional amendments. The state legislature makes and votes on the laws of these states. Is there a state that does not have elected sheriffs?

We do have an elected head of state, it's called a president. Therefore, we are a republic by your own definition.

Your genius falls apart quite easily.
 

Gaidheal

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Nice try but...

... you mostly failed to address what I said. If there's a use of "republic" publicly recorded earlier than that, fair enough. I missed it and you're quite right, but the rest of your comment doesn't do what you seem to imagine it does and certainly nothing I said falls apart, to wit:

Federation? Sure. It doesn't exclude any of the other things the USA is, actually, but it's not fifty separate countries although that doesn't matter either way to the definition of a federation. Indeed, the USA is often referred to as a "Federal Republic" when discussing it in terms of political classification.

I know what the propositions are, too, stating it for me doesn't change what I said nor does semantics about laws versus constitutional clauses; the process is still essentially direct democracy as opposed to representative democracy. This is because the people in that jurisdiction can propose a measure and have it voted on directly, thereafter it must be acted on according to the vote. Non-elected Sheriffs? No idea, it's still direct democracy (electing them at a local level); many other nations would have such a position appointed at a national level.

I didn't say the USA is not a republic, so actually, it appears the only thing falling apart is whatever you thought your post was saying. My genius, such as it is, would seem to be more intact than ever. Thanks! :¬)
 
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JoeSparky

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Jun 20, 2008
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Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
Aye, that's always a fun joke but any real practitioner will be too close for someone to casually pull a gun and calmly shoot, of course. Most modern classes will also teach weapon control - how to keep any you have, how to take any they wield. Regardless, it's funny and not the topic. :¬)

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, of course but you seem to misunderstand what defines a republic and a democracy. The USA is both. Republics have a president as their head of state and some other form of legislating authority, which the president must either ratify or veto (usually thus sending it back for amendment and further discussion). Democracies elect their governments, in one fashion or another and vote on their laws, directly or indirectly. Rights are indeed rights, I was outlining what I think reasonable, not what the legal position actually is, however bear in mind that the constitution was arrived at through discussion and voting. Don't pretend to be ignorant of that, as you've demonstrated knowledge of the history before.

Sorry, but by definition the US of A IS a "Constitutional Republic" as such it may have certain features of a democracy (citizen majority wins in any vote -- pure communism is a DEMOCRACY!) and a republic (legislatures are elected from the citizens to represent the citizens and act in their stead WITHOUT A CONSTITUTION AND BILL OF RIGHTS).
 
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eye95

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Jan 6, 2010
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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Some things to read from the geniuses who gave us our republic:

James Madison in Federalist 10 said:
A republic, by which I mean a government in which the scheme of representation takes place, opens a different prospect, and promises the cure for which we are seeking. Let us examine the points in which it varies from pure democracy, and we shall comprehend both the nature of the cure and the efficacy which it must derive from the Union.

Article IV said:
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
 

rodbender

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Jun 23, 2008
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Navasota, Texas, USA
Gaidheal;1456465Federation? Sure. It doesn't exclude any of the other things the USA is said:
countries[/I] although that doesn't matter either way to the definition of a federation. Indeed, the USA is often referred to as a "Federal Republic" when discussing it in terms of political classification.
:¬)

It modst certainly 50 different countries. I challenge you to find a definition of the word "state" around the time of the founding or the framing of the Constitution that says otherwise. It always meant counrty or nation. It never meant the subdivision of a counrty until after the War of Northern Agression and the 14th amendment.

The rest of your post is simply too obsurd to reply to because it doesn't prove you are correct. Certainly there are parts of the process that operate as a democracy, but, as a whole, we are a Constitutional republic or a representative republic.

Remember that the states are stronger than the federal government. The states are the parent, the feds are the child. The states created the federal government and can do away with it as well.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
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11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
For those interested in history and etymology, I submit a post I wrote some time ago on this forum:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...Brady-says-no.&p=948078&viewfull=1#post948078

Jefferson, one of the "founding fathers" being here discussed, referred to democracy often in his writings. He used it interchangeably with "republic". There was no "evil" Democratic Party at the time for Jefferson to oppose, semantically or otherwise.

The quote often attributed to Jefferson "A democracy is nothing more than a mob rule where 51% rule the other 49%" is unattributable to him. Rather, it is a misattribution.

Read the following:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7842/otj70.htm

A couple of quotes (lifted from that article for convenience):

Thomas Jefferson wrote:
[Our] object is to secure self government by the republicanism of our constitution, as well as by the spirit of the people; and to nourish and perpetuate that spirit. I am not among those who fear the people. They and not the rich are our dependence for continued freedom.


Thomas Jefferson wrote:
The mass of the citizens is the safest depository of their own rights.


Thomas Jefferson wrote:
Democrats consider the people as the safest depository of power in the last resort; they cherish them, therefore, and wish to leave in them all the powers to the exercise of which they are competent.
Jefferson here claims for "Democrats" something which he said himself numerous times (see above). The only possible rationalization is that Jefferson considered himself a republican AND a democrat. (Besides, Republic ∈ Democracy.)



Jefferson even refers to direct ("pure") democracy as a "republic":

Thomas Jefferson wrote:
Such a government [i.e., a pure republic] is evidently restrained to very narrow limits of space and population. I doubt if it would be practicable beyond the extent of a New England township.
(Clearly he is talking about direct democracy where every issue is placed to a vote of every citizen.)


Thomas Jefferson wrote:
Every man, and every body of men on earth, possesses the right of self-government. They receive it with their being from the hand of nature. Individuals exercise it by their single will; collections of men by that of their majority; for the law of the majority is the natural law of every society of men.


Thomas Jefferson wrote:
I subscribe to the principle, that the will of the majority honestly expressed should give law.

The merit, or lack thereof, of Jefferson's thinking is beyond the scope of this discussion. Suffice it to say that, historically, it is simply not accurate to distinguish between "democracy" and "republic" in the same way that we do today.

Jefferson evidently considered "Democracy" a subset of "Republic".

It should go without saying, however, that Jefferson was thinking in the context of a limited government, where "democracy" would merely give the people the power of self-government, rather than an unlimited power of governance over their neighbors.
 
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