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Thread: Wisconsin Legislators expected to expand gun rights by spring

  1. #1
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Wisconsin Legislators expected to expand gun rights by spring

    Nice job Nik and Hubert.

    One thing did trouble me about this article. The second to last paragraph says Gov. Walker indicated the he expects to sign a bill by spring similar to the one Doyle vetoed, which required permits.

    Now more than ever we need to be in constant contact with our lawmakers to remind them we are here and paying attention. Remind them NO PERMITS, no vehicle restrictions, no permits and no permits.


    http://lacrossetribune.com/news/loca...cc4c002e0.html
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Resent my letter to my rep.

    Mr. Zipperer,

    Congratulations on your decisive victory in the 98th District, my district. In addition, congratulations on having a new Republican Governor who can now help with some much needed reforms.

    I voted both for you and Governor Walker.

    I am writing you to urge you to pursue and support legislation that will bring Wisconsin gun laws into agreement with our Constitution and the will of the people.

    1. Repeal Wisconsin Statute 941.23, the concealed carry law. This particular law was passed in the 1800's and has been shown to be in violation of Wisconsin's Article 1, Section 25 of the Constitution, which was passed in 1998. There have been several recent rulings to support this. Judge Jon Counsel, the Circuit Judge in Clark County has ruled it unconstitutional. District Attorney Fox has issued a memo declaring it is unenforceable in Jackson County. http://www.wisconsinappeals.net/wp-c...0/Schultz1.pdf

    http://www.co.jackson.wi.us/html/dis...%20Chicago.pdf


    2. Repeal 167.31, vehicle carry of a loaded firearm.

    3. Repeal 941.235, firearms in public buildings

    4. Repeal 941.237, firearms where alcoholic beverages are sold for consumption

    5. Repeal 941.24, prohibition of switch blades.

    Items 2-5 have been deemed unconstitutional in the Jackson County DA's memo as outlined above.

    The effect of these changes would be to legalize unlicensed carry of defensive weapons by law-abiding Wisconsin citizens. Of course, as you know, the Wisconsin Republican platform was changed this year to support unlicensed open and concealed carry.

    The tsunami that is the Republican takeover in Wisconsin happened because we the people are tired of being taxed and regulated to death. To implement a licensed concealed carry system would require the expense of additional staff both at the state and county level for administration as well as onerous fees for licensing and mandatory training.

    AK, AZ and VT have no licensing and training requirement for both open and concealed carry and there have not been any negative results. UT is also considering doing this in 2011 as well.

    Here are some additional points which speak for themselves:
    • Governor Walker has already gone on record as willing to sign a simple repeal of 941.23
    • 74% of the residents of this state in a STATEWIDE referendum in 1998 voted the right to carry (article 1 sec 25) into our state constitution, so carry of defensive weapons is a VERY popular political position.
    • 48 states allow concealed carry
    • It is already legal for law-abiding citizens to carry openly in Wisconsin with no permit and no training and 1000's are doing so safely every day. Public safety would not be affected by these people putting on a jacket when it's cold and concealing their weapon.
    • 29 other states allow residents to carry without a permit.
    • Other states allow all law-abiding citizens to carry in the manner of their choosing without any permit (VT, Alaska, and now AZ)
    • The TREND is moving towards more and more states allowing law abiding residents to carry in the manner of their choosing with no permit and no mandatory training.
    • A permit system will fly in the face of smaller government by requiring more government employees/resources to administer a permit system, yet the permit system will be ignored by criminals.
    • A permit fee would be a tax on our Constitutional right to carry that would be a hardship on low-income residents who deserve the same right to self-defense as anyone else.
    • Future anti-rights legislatures could easily raise permit fee's through a simple budget bill to exorbitant levels to effectively stifle the right to carry concealed. History shows us that legislatures change and rights once secured are put on the chopping block. PLEASE protect the law-abiding citizens of Wisconsin as best as you can by NOT leaving a trap-door for future less freedom-minded legislatures to use to deny the right to carry.
    • Recent US Supreme Court decisions have found the right to carry to be a FUNDAMENTAL right. Being a fundamental right, law abiding citizens should not have to register with the government to exercise that right.

    In closing, I would just point out that this initiative would match up perfectly with your stated goals of,

    • Limiting the size and scope of government
    • Simplifying regulatory and tax policy
    • Putting people first

    Thank you very much for your consideration in this matter,


    <me>
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  3. #3
    McX
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    got a bad feeling..........................see you guys in the permit application line. Then they'll start dropping the hammer on Open Carry, cause you got your permit, you dont need Open Carry.

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    got a bad feeling..........................see you guys in the permit application line. Then they'll start dropping the hammer on Open Carry, cause you got your permit, you dont need Open Carry.
    You and your feelings!
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  5. #5
    McX
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    if anyone is in need of a permit, it's you and that damn horn of yours! every time you blast it, stuff rattles in the shop, dust falls from the rafters, and you can legitimately hear it echo 3 times around the area. Permit to honk- pay me $65 plus training (get it training?! har-har).

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    The permit trainers.

    "Sen. Kathleen Vinehout, D-Alma, said she might support a bill that included "a strong training component." To that end, she met this week with firearm safety trainers from Minnesota."

    I wonder who they might be and what their agenda is? As if we didn't know.

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    Regular Member ckmorley's Avatar
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    Great job guys !!!!


    ckmorley
    Anti-gunners tell us to run away from muggers. What about those of us who can't run ?

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    protias

    Mind if I use the main body of your letter to send to my rep?

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    if anyone is in need of a permit, it's you and that damn horn of yours! every time you blast it, stuff rattles in the shop, dust falls from the rafters, and you can legitimately hear it echo 3 times around the area. Permit to honk- pay me $65 plus training (get it training?! har-har).


    Quote Originally Posted by pachanga22 View Post
    protias

    Mind if I use the main body of your letter to send to my rep?
    Go right ahead. I stole it from someone else. I think it was phred.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    [IMG]

    Go right ahead. I stole it from someone else. I think it was phred.
    I'll be honest here. It wasn't mine. After reading yours, I thought, "I should have said it that way". My next one will look more like yours. Great job, Protias

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    I'll be honest here. It wasn't mine. After reading yours, I thought, "I should have said it that way". My next one will look more like yours. Great job, Protias
    It wasn't mine. I know I took it from someone else. That letter is the exact letter I sent my rep before he took office. I am just gently reminding him I have not forgotten.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  12. #12
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    We must remind all the lawmakers that we have not forgotten. We must remind them the republican platform was changed to no permits required. Some how we have to get it throught their heads that permits should not be the norm or the next step for Wisconsin.
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

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    I sent a copy to my rep and my senator.
    Waiting on the response. Have already talked to rep about it and not to worried about him, Dan Knodl. It is my senator, Alberta Darling I am worried about. She seems to like to talk about a permit.

    Just will continue to keep on them both to make sure they do not forget what I think!

    Scott

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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pachanga22 View Post
    Just will continue to keep on them both to make sure they do not forget what I think!

    Scott
    +1 If we can keep up the work hopefully we will have a shot at success.
    Last edited by johnny amish; 01-16-2011 at 09:14 PM.
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

  15. #15
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Talking Pass it on....

    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    It wasn't mine. I know I took it from someone else....
    That's the letter I copied, modified, and sent to my newly elected representative Amy Loudenbeck. The last part
    In closing, I would just point out that this initiative would match up perfectly with your stated goals of,

    * Limiting the size and scope of government
    * Simplifying regulatory and tax policy
    * Putting people first
    referred to her campaign platform.
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  16. #16
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Nicely done! It is always good to remind them of their promises.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  17. #17
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Smile Some fine tuning

    I also resent my letter to my representatives, Amy Loudenbeck and Tim Cullen, but added item #3:
    1. Repeal Wisconsin Statute 941.23, the concealed carry law. This particular law was passed in the 1800's and has been shown to be in violation of Wisconsin's Article 1, Section 25 of the Constitution, which was passed in 1998. There have been several recent rulings to support this. Judge Jon Counsel, the Circuit Judge in Clark County has ruled it unconstitutional. District Attorney Fox has issued a memo declaring it is unenforceable in Jackson County. http://www.wisconsinappeals.net/wp-c...0/Schultz1.pdfhttp://www.co.jackson.wi.us/html/dis...%20Chicago.pdf
    2. Repeal 167.31, vehicle carry of a loaded firearm.
    3. Modify 939.22(10) to exclude an unloaded firearm as a dangerous weapon.
    4. Repeal 941.235, firearms in public buildings
    5. Repeal 941.237, firearms where alcoholic beverages are sold for consumption
    6. Repeal 941.24, prohibition of switch blades.
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny amish View Post
    +1 If we can keep up the work hopefully we will have a shot at success.
    I just contact my Senator & Representative again. 2nd time in 2 weeks, they will get sick of me soon, lol.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

  19. #19
    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    I do not like a permit system, I do not want a permit system. This is bad.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardballer View Post
    I do not like a permit system, I do not want a permit system. This is bad.
    I agree with you. For everyone here...the only thing walker said months ago was he would sign a Permitted Carry bill, so if we all want Constitutional carry then it is up to us to make it happen. If Walker signs a Permit bill then we did not do our job. Can't Blame Walker, he is the end result.
    Last edited by GLOCK21GB; 01-17-2011 at 09:46 AM.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Letter to legislators

    Copy of letter to my legislators. I don't really care what you think of it but it expresses my opinions.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This email is longer than it should be but it concerns a subject that I feel is of great importance. I would be honored if you would take some of your valuable time to read it.

    This legislative session will no doubt see legislation introduced involving the carry of firearms by law-abiding citizens. The legislation introduced may range from a highly restrictive law similar to the personal protection acts of early 2000 to recognition of the constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms for personal defense. A right as contained in Article I section 25 of our state constitution “The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose”. A right that is short and simple and without any ambiguity.

    On July 15 2003 the Wisconsin Supreme Court (WSC) issued two rulings in regards to the carry of concealed firearms, one the case of State v Hamdan and the other the case of State v Cole. The gist of those decisions were that the people of Wisconsin do indeed have the right to keep and bear arms for the purposes listed in the constitution. However, the Court ruled that because statute 941.23 (Nobody except a peace officer may go armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon) existed prior to the enactment of Art I sect 25 it was presumed to be constitutional and that it is a restriction of the manner by which a firearm is carried and not an infringement on the right to keep and bear arms itself. (Note: the WSC did not rule that the carry of a concealed weapon per se was unconstitutional, only that statute 941.23 which restricted the manner of carry was constitutional).

    In other words the Court ruled that the statute was not an infringement on the state constitution because it did not restrict carry of a firearm but only the manner by which a firearm may be carried. The WSC ruled that the restriction on the manner of carry is not an infringement on the right to keep and bear arms because there is an alternate manner available. That alternate being open carry. Open carry with no required permitting system or mandated training just a clear criminal record and evidence that the person exercising the right is law-abiding.

    Since those 2003 rulings the constitutional right of open carry has been affirmed by the WSC, lower courts and on April 20, 2009 by the state attorney general. It is clear that the courts do not see the carry of concealed firearms for personal protection as being outside the scope of the constitution but see statute 941.23 as a legacy restriction of the manner by which a firearm is carried. The supposed conflict of manner of carry does not exist in Art I sec 25. The amendment is manner of carry neutral. The conflict exists only by court decision. Decision that can be corrected by the legislature. In the coming months there will likely be a number of proposals presented to the legislature to address that conflict. The proposals will likely range from a highly restrictive permitting system to recognition of the fundamental constitutional right given by Art I sec 25.

    A number of states are reviewing and/or changing their firearm laws in recognition of the fundamental constitutional right to keep and bear arms provided by their state constitutions, states such as AK, VT, AZ, SC, TN, MT and TX. Wisconsin should be next.

    A legislative law that would recognize the fundamental right of constitutional carry in Wisconsin would be preferred but the solution may be more simple than the drawn out process of bill passage, that is, rescind statute 941.23, or at a minimum modify it. It could be modified to read “Subject to the exceptions below concealed carry of firearms by other than a peace officer is allowed“. Certain exceptions could be inserted such as -- except for felons and those judged mentally incompetent, guilty of substance abuse, alcoholic, registered sexual predators or convicted of felonious crimes of domestic abuse.

    Finally: The aftermath of the horrible shootings in Arizona will surely bring out cries of more gun control from the anti-gun factions. Anti-gun advocates that will morbidly try to use the incident to further their agenda. Rest assured that those shootings are abhorred no stronger than from the gun enthusiasts in the country. Gun enthusiasts that would not resist any reasonable restrictions that can be proven to have prevented the atrocious act from happening. The shootings serve up a warning. A warning that the world is unfortunately becoming more violent and fractious. The need for personal protection is becoming a fact of society. One may ask where was law enforcement in Tucson when the tragedy occurred? The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that law enforcement has no obligation to provide for individual protection. It only has the responsibility to provide protection for the public as a whole. That ruling applies to members of state legislatures as well as the general public. Because local law enforcement has no mandated responsibility to provide individual protection many legislators nationwide are or are considering carrying firearms so that they may provide for their own personal protection. Protection that should also apply to private citizens. Now is the time to review the impact and the precise words of Art I section 25 of the Wisconsin constitutional and recognize that every law-abiding citizen of Wisconsin has a fundamental right to provide for their own personal protection.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 01-17-2011 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Corrected grammar; carry to care.

  22. #22
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Thumbs up I Like It!

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Copy of letter to my legislators. I don't really carry what you think of it but it expresses my opinions.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ....
    Great letter! let's hope they do take the time to read it.
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    I don't really carry what you think of it but it expresses my opinions.
    FINE! *turns up nose and snuffs"
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

  24. #24
    Regular Member CUOfficer's Avatar
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    I can't believe that article actually made the front page of the La Crosse Tribune. People are definetly talking about it now. If training and a permit system are imposed on us, will the training for the Minnesotta permit suffice? Anyone have an opinion?

  25. #25
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    It wasn't mine. I know I took it from someone else. That letter is the exact letter I sent my rep before he took office. I am just gently reminding him I have not forgotten.
    It looks like mine.

    Please send your donations for the copyright to...... Wisconsin Carry Inc..!!

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