Do I HAVE to show ID?

Or you could carry a non military handgun made before 1968, before serial numbers were required on firearms. Then you could tell the officer there isn't any need to run the serial because it doesn't exist. The LEO will probably assume that you have illegally modified the gun.

mattwestm said:

If an officer ever asked me to let him secure the weapon, I'd say "I'd feel safer if it stayed in the holster and neither of us touched it." I'd be pretty scared to let an officer handle a 1911, or something other than a Glock. Most cops aren't "gun people" and probably don't know how to handle anything other than a Glock or similar handgun.

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I agree. But by the way he was acting and his tone I didn't feel like it was a request, if you know what I mean. He sorta announced that he was going to do it and grabbed the serpa and pushed the button. I was surprised he actually knew how to work the serpa. At 1 AM I didn't feel like getting into a ******* contest over it. Otherwise he was polite and nice. Since I didn't get the GATTOTP lecture and attitude I let it ride.

aosailor said:

I read in another post that I dont have to show ID, but I do have to give them my name and address? is this true?

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NC says you have to "identify yourself". The usual way is by name and DOB. They can run a check on you this way. After I give them my name and DOB thats it. I've satisfied that requirement. It's none of his business where I'm going, where I've been, why I'm out at 2 AM, etc. It all depends on the cops attitude. If he's a nice guy I might oblige him. But a azzhole will only get name and DOB.

NCjones said:

NC says you have to "identify yourself". The usual way is by name and DOB. .

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CITE PLEASE!!!!!! This is too common an occurrence for OC'ers and therefore too important to throw stuff like this out there. If NC "says you have to", then you should be able to point to a specific statute that states the same.

I firmly believe you are wrong, but I can't prove it by somehow showing that the statute doesn't exist.

So again, CITE PLEASE. It's one of the terms of service of this site and this is one of the times where it matters.

I have researched this exhaustively, before this thread ever came up so either take my word for it, or prove me wrong. I posted an informative link above, you should all check it out.

Smith45acp said:

There are no stop and id statutes, to my knowledge, that require you to physically show id. CA used to have one like that but it was struck down in Kolender V Lawson.

That might be what you're thinking about Rotor. No states require you to carry ID with you at all times, therefore it can't be unlawful not to provide it. In states that do have such statutes, what you described should work.

But some stop and id statutes go further than simply determining ID of a detainee. Some statutes call for an explanation of your activities. That's a 4th amendment nightmare IMO.

Regardless of where you are and what stop and id statutes there may be, ALL of these require that you be detained during a "Terry Stop". No officer can legally stop you, frisk you, and demand anything from you unless he or she can explain what crime you were potentially committing or about to commit.

I've done a lot of research on this, and it is surprisingly difficult to prove that something is legal (not showing / speaking your ID at request of an officer in NC).

But here is an interesting article tailored to NC, and written by a law firm that specializes in advising police departments across our state:

http://policehelp.net/pubs/2004/rollcallv3n7.pdf

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That may be what I was thinking of but still not sure. I may have been reading a case or something, idk. I'll have to defer and concede the point on this one. I can't for the life of me find it in NC Statutes lol. I was probably reading an opinion of a case or some other reference.

Thanks for the insight

rotorhead said:

That may be what I was thinking of but still not sure. I may have been reading a case or something, idk. I'll have to defer and concede the point on this one. I can't for the life of me find it in NC Statutes lol. I was probably reading an opinion of a case or some other reference.

Thanks for the insight

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Google Nevada v Hiibel. I bet that's what you're thinking of. But even though the decision was on a SCOTUS level, it has no impact on states which do not have a "stop and identify" statute.

NavyLT said:

Since our OP is aosailor, I am assuming Aviation Ordnanceman, US Navy. My response would be, "I took an oath to support and defend the constitution of the United States and right now I am choosing to not only support the 2nd Amendment, but support the 4th Amendment as well."

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who says Navy Officers are idiots?! wow that is the best smart ass answer I've seen in awhile! Thanks LT!
And you are right I was an Aviation Ordnanceman in the navy for a bit. Again, thanks for my new answer

aosailor said:

And you are right I was an Aviation Ordnanceman in the navy for a bit. Again, thanks for my new answer

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Small world, (BB Stacker) AOAC 86'-89' NAS Jax. A-School at NAS Memphis/AC at NAS Pensacola. Hit by a drunk driver in 89'

Smith45acp said:

Google Nevada v Hiibel. I bet that's what you're thinking of. But even though the decision was on a SCOTUS level, it has no impact on states which do not have a "stop and identify" statute.

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I believe this is the one I was thinking of, but only found it while reading up on the Terry case. I'm thinking I kind of blended the two in my head and had that notion.

Thanks again for the clarification.

There is a story to tell behind my researching this so thoroughly. I will be happy to share it in the future.

Smith45acp said:

There is a story to tell behind my researching this so thoroughly. I will be happy to share it in the future.

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Please do at your leisure. I, for one, never mind being corrected.

I'm looking for a state wide vagrancy ordinance that NC might have. my roommate works asset protection for a major retailer and deals with LEOs on a daily basis. he said that when they catch a shoplifter and they dont show proper ID that LEOs take them to jail until their ID can be proven.... anybody know anything about that? I'm looking for it now. this MIGHT be used against us if we refuse to show ID while being stopped.....

aosailor said:

I'm looking for a state wide vagrancy ordinance that NC might have. my roommate works asset protection for a major retailer and deals with LEOs on a daily basis. he said that when they catch a shoplifter and they dont show proper ID that LEOs take them to jail until their ID can be proven.... anybody know anything about that? I'm looking for it now. this MIGHT be used against us if we refuse to show ID while being stopped.....

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Hard to make that case, since the shoplifter is being charged with a crime where we have done nothing against the law

you are rite bout police not being gun ppl

mattwestm said:

Most cops aren't "gun people" and probably don't know how to handle anything other than a Glock or similar handgun.

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involved in a situation in 'make my day colorado' where the 911 would absolutely not dispatch loe to my location as i held a gentleman on the ground w/my FNH pistol. at the direction of 911 operator i released the gentleman from the ground after assuring he was not armed and left the area to meet loe. the loe did sop and i backed up to them w/hands on head, they removed my pistol from my holster which was handed to another loe.

all i heard from behind me was the loe exclaiming...'wow bill you should look at this'...i exclaimed there is one in the chamber!! the loe 'playing' with my pistol kept oh'g and aww'g over the pistol and after further attempts to alert them of the danger, finally stated loudly to the loe holding me, 'if you do not tell him there is a shell in the chamber, i will bring you to your knees and tell him myself!!'

the surprised loe holding me decided i might just do that and said: "jim there is one in the chamber so clear it!" 'Jim' stated...now who leaves one in the chamber?

they gave me back my wallet, cc cert, dl, and firearm(s) and then commented as a group - "we wish more folk had cc certs...when i told them about dispatch they were shocked and agreed to check it out...never hear any more about it...

understand the barney fife mentality more and more and it is truly scary...

wabbit

aosailor said:

I'm looking for a state wide vagrancy ordinance that NC might have. my roommate works asset protection for a major retailer and deals with LEOs on a daily basis. he said that when they catch a shoplifter and they dont show proper ID that LEOs take them to jail until their ID can be proven.... anybody know anything about that? I'm looking for it now. this MIGHT be used against us if we refuse to show ID while being stopped.....

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When you are being charged with a crime we're talking a whole nother ballpark.

Some charges you can get a ticket and walk away, some you can be booked downtown for. There is some officer discretion here if I understand correctly.

wabbit said:

involved in a situation in 'make my day colorado' where the 911 would absolutely not dispatch loe to my location as i held a gentleman on the ground w/my FNH pistol. at the direction of 911 operator i released the gentleman from the ground after assuring he was not armed and left the area to meet loe. the loe did sop and i backed up to them w/hands on head, they removed my pistol from my holster which was handed to another loe.

all i heard from behind me was the loe exclaiming...'wow bill you should look at this'...i exclaimed there is one in the chamber!! the loe 'playing' with my pistol kept oh'g and aww'g over the pistol and after further attempts to alert them of the danger, finally stated loudly to the loe holding me, 'if you do not tell him there is a shell in the chamber, i will bring you to your knees and tell him myself!!'

the surprised loe holding me decided i might just do that and said: "jim there is one in the chamber so clear it!" 'Jim' stated...now who leaves one in the chamber?

they gave me back my wallet, cc cert, dl, and firearm(s) and then commented as a group - "we wish more folk had cc certs...when i told them about dispatch they were shocked and agreed to check it out...never hear any more about it...

understand the barney fife mentality more and more and it is truly scary...

wabbit

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Either there's more to this story, or Colorado is as bad as California.

Thundar said:

Grip tape on your gun (to preseve your guns serial number:lol.

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Cant the cops just peel this off if they seize the weapon "for thier saftey" and could you possibly be charged with a crim by conceling it?

He probably meant LEO.

Sc0tt said:

Cant the cops just peel this off if they seize the weapon "for thier saftey" and could you possibly be charged with a crim by conceling it?

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Here's a classic SCOTUS one-liner from Arizona vs Hicks: "A search is a search, even if it happens to disclose nothing but the bottom of a turntable." In this case, the police officer moved the turntable to look for a serial number.

The short story on the legal theory is that police can seize evidence without a warrant if it is in plain view and the cop otherwise has a legal authority to be where he is when he sees it. But, if he has to move, in this case, a turntable inside a private residence with neither a warrant nor consent, in order so see its serial number, then it "...is much more than trivial for the purposes of the 4th Amendment."

Arizona vs Hicks covers all this. The link is below. Its an interesting read--the story behind the case, what the majority decided, and what the dissent thought. Plus, you learn a little bit about search and seizure case law in other areas.

http://supreme.justia.com/us/480/321/case.html

So, you can see how removing tape from a gun grip without probable cause or a warrant merely to run the serial number relates. Note that the Hick's cop moved the turntable in order to see the serial number so he could find out if it was stolen.

thanks for all of your input guys! just had another question come to mind.

In my experience most of my encounters with LEOs while OCing they take my gun "for officer safety" and give it back when they are done. are they allowed to do this? do I HAVE to give them my firearm?


100% of the times it was removed from me i was pulled over for speeding, so i had already done something illegal.
90% of the times i had no problem giving them the gun/ having it returned to me. just a few LEOs unfamiliar with how to handle my pistol safely.... long stories