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Thread: Open Carry in a Bar

  1. #1
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    Open Carry in a Bar

    I've been looking at the Missouri Revised Statutes and cannot find anywhere where open carrying in a bar is illegal as far as State law is concerned. I was looking for more help on this topic. I have a friend who owns a bar and sometimes we have private poker games or poker tournys there on Sundays when the bar is closed with anywhere from 10-20 of us who are all friends and aquaintances. The thought has crossed my mind while playing that if some crook looked through a window and saw a big card game going that he might be tempted to walk in and rob us. I would like to carry my firearm at these games.

    Sometimes I hang out at his bar when its open and if I am driving I don't drink but if my wife drops me off and picks me back up, I will drink. I am unsure of the laws as far as having a weapon in the car with me if I am riding passenger and somewhat intoxicated. I usually have a concealed weapon in the car but I leave it at home if I get dropped off at the bar. Even if its illegal to carry while intoxicated (which I don't find anything that says I can't in Missouri as of yet) but if it is illegal, can the firearm be under my seat, in the glovebox or under my wife's seat or does it have to be in the trunk? Should it be in my wife's purse? Basically, I am armed on the way to the bar, I drink enough to be considered drunk and now I have that firearm in my car while being driven home.

    I just wanted to start a discussion on this topic and tap into anyone else's knowledge of any laws in regards to carrying in a bar in general, and/or carrying while intoxicated while outside a bar or as a passenger in a car.

    I am just concerned with State law at this time.

    Here's a link to Missouri Revised Statutes:
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/STATUTES/STATUTES.htm

    Here's a link to RSMO Chapter 571 - Weapons Offenses:
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/STATUTES/C571.HTM

    Here's a link to RSMO 571.030 - Illegal Use of Weapons:
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000030.HTM

    Here's a link to 571.107 Endorsement does not authorize concealed firearms, where--
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000107.HTM

    In this one 571.107.1 subsection (7)
    Where it basically states that your permit doesn't allow you to carry "concealed" in a place dispensing alcohol for consumption such that its that business's primary purpose without the owner's consent. Also, it says "Nothing in this subdivision authorizes any individual who has been issued a concealed carry endorsement to possess any firearm while intoxicated"

    now, that says the endorsement doesn't authorize it but it leads me to believe that somewhere within the law that it may be illegal but this statement alone doesn't forbid it from what I can tell. Also, you don't have to have an endorsement to possess a firearm anyways.

    I'll keep looking through the laws as I do want to carry when possible and legal to do so. I am not interested in going armed in public while being plastered either.

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    Okay, I just found something interesting.

    In 571.030 Unlawful Use of Weapons, specifically 571.030.1 (5) it states:

    571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

    (5) Has a firearm or projectile weapon readily capable of lethal use on his or her person, while he or she is intoxicated, and handles or otherwise uses such firearm or projectile weapon in either a negligent or unlawful manner or discharges such firearm or projectile weapon unless acting in self-defense;

    now this tells me that it is okay to have a firearm on your person while intoxicated as long as you to handle or use it in a negligent or unlawful manner and that if you discharge it, it must be in self defense. They put stipulations in the law such that it gives exceptions for carrying the weapon and actually using the weapon. What's the point of including the part about discharging in self defense if you aren't allowed to even have it while intoxicate.

    But

    this law was actually the subject of a Missouri Supreme Court ruling in 2009 in which it was ruled against the defendant who was charged under this law. Article and link to the case is found here:

    http://volokh.com/2009/11/20/missour...e-intoxicated/

    I can't tell if it was because he threatened to shoot himself or threatened that the police would have to shoot him or if it was just because he was incredibly under the influence in a big time way. If its simply because he was in possession of the firearm while drunk than it really doesn't fly with the above law and is disturbing to me that the State Supreme Court would rule on it in such a way.

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    In drinking situations (I quit drinking) I gave my wife the gun away from my possesion just as percaution. If I am correct someone help me on this I dont think you can have a gun in a bar.

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    http://www.carlwardlaw.com/blog-entry-21.html

    Here is one trial attorney's answers to question in regards to some of our firearm laws. He also addresses
    RSMO 571.030.1 (5) which I assume through his writing that was a new law that went into effect in August 2009 which was a few months prior to the Missouri Supreme Court's ruling in the case I mentioned above. I don't know what the law was exactly in regards to possession while intoxicated but it was changed and a new law went into effect before this case was finalized. I assume he was arrested using the earlier law and I don't know what kind of effect this MSC ruling has on the newly revised statute of 571.030.1 (5).

    Copied from the above link:

    "What is Missouri's law regarding possessing a firearm while intoxicated?"

    With the popularity of concealed-carry permits in Missouri, this has become a huge problem and point of inquiry from our clients. Under the law, as it existed prior to August 28th of this year, being anywhere near a loaded firearm while intoxicated was considered a felony. The old law was written so poorly and vaguely that simply coming home from the bar on a Saturday night and sleeping next to a loaded firearm in your nightstand was arguably a felony. And although it was legal to possess the firearm while you were acting in self-defense, it was unclear if you could legally possess the firearm in the seconds before you acted in self-defense (i.e. when you were trying to determine if the person in your home actually was an intruder). As you can imagine, this created a lot of problems.

    Fortunately, the legislature changed the law, and the new law went into effect on August 28th. I say "fortunately," because the new law makes it much more difficult to be charged with possessing a firearm while intoxicated. However, the legislature changed the law in an odd way � by sticking the change into a real estate bill!

    The new law prohibits:

    1.Possessing a firearm capable of lethal use;
    2.On your person (i.e. actually on your body);
    3.While intoxicated;
    4.And actually handling or otherwise using it in a negligent or otherwise unlawful manner;
    5.Unless you're acting in self defense.
    Let's break the law down a bit. Unlike the old law, which failed to define possession (i.e. that is why having the car in your glove compartment or nightstand could have been interpreted as "in your possession"), the new law requires the gun to actually be on your person. A firearm in your glove compartment or nightstand is not considered to be "on your person," (which the new law requires, rather than just "in your possession"), thereby clearing up much of the old law's ambiguity.

    Second, the new law requires you to handle the gun in a negligent or otherwise unlawful manner. This provision is extremely important. Under the old law, simply possessing the gun was enough to be convicted of felony possession of a firearm. The new law, though, requires much more than mere possession on your person to be convicted. Now, you must also act negligently or unlawfully.

    Shooting a gun blindly into the air for fun, pulling a gun out in a bar and accidently dropping it, and "pulling a Plaxico" (carrying a loaded guy in the waistband of your baggy pants, from which it could easily slip out and result in a shot being fired � possibly into your own thigh or elsewhere) are just examples of negligent, unlawful, or negligent and unlawful acts.

    The new law does not protect such dangerous acts, but rather protects responsible, law-abiding citizens from facing the prospect of a felony for simply concealing a firearm for self-protection while intoxicated.

    Despite the change in the law, for many people (i.e. the angry drunks out there), I highly recommend you still leave your firearm at home when you go out for a night of drinking. Alcohol impairs judgment and, consequently, reduces your ability to make rational decisions under even ordinary circumstances, let alone circumstances where you might be evaluating the use of deadly force to protect yourself or someone else from imminent death or serious bodily injury. With that said, however, most of us recognize that we are far more likely to face the need to use deadly force near those who are also similarly affected by alcohol. All you need to do is read the Post Dispatch to see numerous instances of innocent people being killed outside of bars or nightclubs, or just late at as a mistaken intruder. As a result, you must determine how responsible it is to carry a firearm while intoxicated, regardless of what the law may or may not allow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracker06 View Post
    In drinking situations (I quit drinking) I gave my wife the gun away from my possesion just as percaution. If I am correct someone help me on this I dont think you can have a gun in a bar.
    Before I started looking into it, I had assumed this was the case but from what I am reading I can only find where concealed weapons are prohibited or actually, not authorized with a concealed carry endorsement. It doesn't even appear to have criminal charges associated with it. Also, from what I have seen, you can even carry concealed with permission from the owner if you have a concealed carry endorsement.

    I am wondering about open carry mostly, with or without an endorsement to conceal carry as I don't think it really matters in regards to State law.

    I haven't carried while being intoxicated but if I get dropped off at the bar, and leave my firearm in the car with my wife and then she picks me back up and I am a little inebriated, or at least > 0.08, I wonder if I can have that gun strapped to me and if not, what should I do with it. Until I feel comfortable, I can at least put it in her purse or in her control. I am just curious though. Another item of my curiosity is how they could even prove that you are intoxicated if you aren't falling down drunk. I don't think you would be mandated to take a chemical test if you aren't operating a car.
    Last edited by MK; 01-17-2011 at 04:35 PM. Reason: added 1 more paragraph

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    No laws against open carry in a bar, it's fine. There are laws against CC in any place that derives 51% or more of it's profits from alcohol sales (i.e. a bar), but IIRC it can't be considered a criminal act. Check on the criminal act part.

    You are good to go with CC if the owner approves it. It's his private property.

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    you can legally open carry in a bar.

    lol think this thread going to explode into a big arguement on if should you open carry in a bar even if its legal? like it has every other time someone brings this up? we will see.

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    i have a issue with the lawyers response.
    he stated:
    The new law prohibits:

    1.Possessing a firearm capable of lethal use;

    the MO ststue 571.030 states:
    (5) Has a firearm or projectile weapon readily capable of lethal use on his or her person,

    now a firearm CAPABLE or lethal use and a firearm or projectile weapon READILY CAPABLE.

    to me those are 2 different definitions; but im no lawyer now.

    readily capable means ready to shoot. the lawyers description would make you possessing a unloaded gun to be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK View Post
    (5) Has a firearm or projectile weapon readily capable of lethal use on his or her person, while he or she is intoxicated, and handles or otherwise uses such firearm or projectile weapon in either a negligent or unlawful manner or discharges such firearm or projectile weapon unless acting in self-defense;
    This law actually just went into effect in November. It makes it so you can be intoxicated and carry legally. As long as you don't do anything illegal with the weapon, you are covered by the law. AKA, don't brandish the gun or make threats with the gun and you'll be safe.

    Be safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK View Post
    Okay, I just found something interesting.

    In 571.030 Unlawful Use of Weapons, specifically 571.030.1 (5) it states:

    571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

    (5) Has a firearm or projectile weapon readily capable of lethal use on his or her person, while he or she is intoxicated, and handles or otherwise uses such firearm or projectile weapon in either a negligent or unlawful manner or discharges such firearm or projectile weapon unless acting in self-defense;

    now this tells me that it is okay to have a firearm on your person while intoxicated as long as you to handle or use it in a negligent or unlawful manner and that if you discharge it, it must be in self defense. They put stipulations in the law such that it gives exceptions for carrying the weapon and actually using the weapon. What's the point of including the part about discharging in self defense if you aren't allowed to even have it while intoxicate.

    But

    this law was actually the subject of a Missouri Supreme Court ruling in 2009 in which it was ruled against the defendant who was charged under this law. Article and link to the case is found here:

    http://volokh.com/2009/11/20/missour...e-intoxicated/

    I can't tell if it was because he threatened to shoot himself or threatened that the police would have to shoot him or if it was just because he was incredibly under the influence in a big time way. If its simply because he was in possession of the firearm while drunk than it really doesn't fly with the above law and is disturbing to me that the State Supreme Court would rule on it in such a way.
    I can assure that RSMO 571.030.1 (5), as it is written now, was NOT the subject of a MO Supreme Court ruling in 2009. The current wording of that particular statute was just written, passed, and enacted last year. It didn't become law until August 28, 2010.

    In fact, it was amended BECAUSE of the Supreme Court decision.

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    After reading 571.030, it does seem that you can carry while intoxicated. Can anyone confirm this?

    To the OP, you can carry concealed w/o permission into a bar, and it is not criminal even though the law states you need permission.

    Check out section 2 here:

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000107.HTM

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    Quote Originally Posted by cash50 View Post
    After reading 571.030, it does seem that you can carry while intoxicated. Can anyone confirm this?
    That is correct. As per our the newly revised statute, RSMO 571.030.1.(5), it is no longer a criminal offense to simply be in possession of a firearm while intoxicated. In addition to being intoxicated, you must also do something "negligent or unlawful", or "discharge" the firearm before it is a criminal offense. You can, quite literally, be "falling down drunk" and in possession of a firearm and it is no longer a criminal offense.

    With that said, it is NEVER a good idea to be intoxicated and in possession of a firearm. Alcohol impairs your judgment, it impairs your reaction time, it impairs your reflexes, it impairs your eyesight and hearing, and generally causes your body to function at much less than optimum levels. It would be very easy for a "drunk" to make a bad decision with a firearm he/she happened to be carrying at the time. Drugs/alcohol and firearms DO NOT MIX.

    To the OP, you can carry concealed w/o permission into a bar, and it is not criminal even though the law states you need permission.

    Check out section 2 here:

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000107.HTM
    Just remember that the section you are referring to only applies to people with a valid CCW permit. If you don't have a CCW permit, you CANNOT carry a concealed firearm in Missouri unless you meet one of the noted exemptions (in your vehicle, on property you own or control, while hunting and also in possession of an exposed projectile weapon, etc).

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    Yes, with a valid CCW.

    I guess I was a little behind, I admit that I didn't think you could possess a firearm while intoxicated.

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    i think i would almost be scared to carry when piss drunk. i think after 2 beers, i would take out the clip and dechamber my gun but would still carry it.

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    I would not carry when drunk. However, I appreciate them not tramping on our rights.

    This way you also don't have to be wondering if those 2 beers put you above 0.08 even though you feel fine.

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    kylemoul, what kind of rifle are you carrying?

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    Sorry, but I'm going to be devil's advocate on this.

    Why oh why does this subject keep coming up folks? Possession of a firearm with the intent of open carrying into a bar is a HUGE red-flag! Of all places concealed carry should be at your behest, that is one location. Liquid courage is just the thing to intice someone into a bullet-proof mentality to the point that they could make specific challenge to the presence of you and your firearm.

    We certainly don't need some knuckle headed LEO who just happens to be armed and in the same bar deciding it's his "drunken duty" to disarm you at gunpoint or interpret you as a threat just because you're carrying. We've already seen in another State that LEOs consuming alcohol in public and their possession of guns at the same time just don't mix..

    It's a huge risk not worth taking. I'm truly sorry if you're one of the 21-22 year olds that don't qualify for the 23 year old age requirement for CCW permits in Missouri. It's something that has to change this year.

    By the way, if you're being the "designated carrier" and will be sober...then I applaud you for taking such a step. Be sensible about it and above all else, watch your 6!
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 01-18-2011 at 03:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    Sorry, but I'm going to be devil's advocate on this.

    Why oh why does this subject keep coming up folks? Possession of a firearm with the intent of open carrying into a bar is a HUGE red-flag! Of all places concealed carry should be at your behest, that is one location. Liquid courage is just the thing to intice someone into a bullet-proof mentality to the point that they could make specific challenge to the presence of you and your firearm.

    We certainly don't need some knuckle headed LEO who just happens to be armed and in the same bar deciding it's his "drunken duty" to disarm you at gunpoint or interpret you as a threat just because you're carrying. We've already seen in another State that LEOs consuming alcohol in public and their possession of guns at the same time just don't mix..

    It's a huge risk not worth taking. I'm truly sorry if you're one of the 21-22 year olds that don't qualify for the 23 year old age requirement for CCW permits in Missouri. It's something that has to change this year.

    By the way, if you're being the "designated carrier" and will be sober...then I applaud you for taking such a step. Be sensible about it and above all else, watch your 6!
    It comes up because it's legal and the Second Amendment applies always. If someone wants to carry it's his or her choice. You may think it's not worth taking that risk. Great. As in many things when carrying, it's a situational matter. Some people may be able to drink and still have good judgment, so they may remain armed. Good for them.

    And if you are under 23 and not resourceful and passionate enough to find a way to carry concealed, that's your own problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    Sorry, but I'm going to be devil's advocate on this.

    Why oh why does this subject keep coming up folks? Possession of a firearm with the intent of open carrying into a bar is a HUGE red-flag! Of all places concealed carry should be at your behest, that is one location. Liquid courage is just the thing to intice someone into a bullet-proof mentality to the point that they could make specific challenge to the presence of you and your firearm.

    We certainly don't need some knuckle headed LEO who just happens to be armed and in the same bar deciding it's his "drunken duty" to disarm you at gunpoint or interpret you as a threat just because you're carrying. We've already seen in another State that LEOs consuming alcohol in public and their possession of guns at the same time just don't mix..

    It's a huge risk not worth taking. I'm truly sorry if you're one of the 21-22 year olds that don't qualify for the 23 year old age requirement for CCW permits in Missouri. It's something that has to change this year.

    By the way, if you're being the "designated carrier" and will be sober...then I applaud you for taking such a step. Be sensible about it and above all else, watch your 6!
    well dorkfish or realteach, whichever you go by now that your talking on two accounts on each site. its going to keep coming up. we get new people on this site. and their going to ask.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goalseter88 View Post
    well Dorkfish or realteach, whichever you go by now that your talking on two accounts on each site. its going to keep coming up. we get new people on this site. and their going to ask.
    Just for clarification Is REALteach4u, AKA Heresyourdipstickjimmy here on OCDO and AKA Dorkfish on MSSA all the same person?

    Doc

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    yep. you can tell how he talks. but if thats not enough. one of the admins on missouricarry has confirmed that is is coming from the same IP address as dorkfish. he has the realteach on both this site and missiouricarry.com, and now on missouricarryy he posting stuff on both dorkfish and his realteach account.
    Last edited by goalseter88; 01-18-2011 at 08:03 PM.

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    what rifle do i carry? i dont carry a rifle, if i carry its a ruger sr9c.

    as far as hunting game, rifles are .30-06

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    and it should be good judgment not to carry when your loaded just because its alcohol...like me if i drink enough i hit a point and this ugly lady looks smokin.
    then you wake up the next morning like...****.

    kinda the same thing i personally think of with a gun. at the time you think its a good thing but in the morning, oops.

    but every person is different

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by cash50 View Post
    kylemoul, what kind of rifle are you carrying?
    Quote Originally Posted by kylemoul View Post
    what rifle do i carry? i dont carry a rifle, if i carry its a ruger sr9c.

    as far as hunting game, rifles are .30-06
    I was jacking with you. No offense intended. Check out the thumbnail below.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    ha i was wondering how i could carry a rifle around concealed. overkill

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