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Thread: Shooting Doesn't Stop Arizona Legislature From Introducing Pro-Gun Bills

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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Shooting Doesn't Stop Arizona Legislature From Introducing Pro-Gun Bills

    Hats off to Arizona. Looks like they might have a clue as to what "Shall not be infringed" means.


    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/shoo...pro-gun-bills/
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    I am glad that Arizona is holding firm to it's pro-2A history. As the article pointed out, only Utah has enacted laws that exempt persons holding a Utah permit from the Federal Gun Free School Zone law (as allowed by Federal Law if the permit is issued on the basis of a background check). There have been no hoards of dead kids in Utah. Indeed, any disturbed kid contemplating a re-do of Columbine has to wonder if his/her teacher might not put an end to that plan with a concealed handgun. Likewise, any disturbed college student at the University of Utah who wants a re-do of Virginia Tech has to wonder if his classmates might not be carrying Glock 19 or Springfield XDs. (The kids at BYU are S.O.L. - The Mormon Church owns that property and has forbidden law abiding Mormon kids from carrying defensive firearms on the BYU Campus - or more properly stated - a Church mandated Free Kill Zone.)

    On a related topic ----

    My friends, I am just as much for Constitutional Carry as the next freedom loving law abiding citizen of WI, but until and unless the Federal GFSZ is repealed, a permit based on a background check is the only way around the Federal GFSZ - AND - if and only if - the WI Legislature permits it. Please keep that in mind as you lobby your legislators for concealed carry in WI. The ideal situation would be - 1) Constitutional Carry (open or concealed) - - 2) Optional permit for travel reciprocity - - 3) Optional Permit based on a background check AND WI Legislation authorizing those with a WI (optional) permit to carry inside the Federal GFSZ. 4) The (optional) permit can be issued to out-of-state residents - or - those who pay property taxes in WI (if you want to be elitist - or deny the FIBS). I may no longer reside in WI, but I have family in WI and pay property taxes in WI.

    Jim
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    On a related topic ----

    My friends, I am just as much for Constitutional Carry as the next freedom loving law abiding citizen of WI, but until and unless the Federal GFSZ is repealed, a permit based on a background check is the only way around the Federal GFSZ - AND - if and only if - the WI Legislature permits it. Please keep that in mind as you lobby your legislators for concealed carry in WI. The ideal situation would be - 1) Constitutional Carry (open or concealed) - - 2) Optional permit for travel reciprocity - - 3) Optional Permit based on a background check AND WI Legislation authorizing those with a WI (optional) permit to carry inside the Federal GFSZ. 4) The (optional) permit can be issued to out-of-state residents - or - those who pay property taxes in WI (if you want to be elitist - or deny the FIBS). I may no longer reside in WI, but I have family in WI and pay property taxes in WI.

    Jim
    Forget that! I'm holding strong to NO PERMITS!
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Be Careful What You Ask For - You Might Just Get It - And it May Hurt

    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Forget that! I'm holding strong to NO PERMITS!
    So am I Protias, but it will not get any WI Citizen, or Citizen of any other State for that matter, past the Federal GFSZ law. Get a grip on that. The WI Legislature cannot overrule the Federal GFSZ statute. All it can do is create an (optional) permit system, "based on a background check", and then exempt such permit holders.

    My friends, I have tried to be polite and I have tried to be patient, but until and unless the Federal GFSZ law is repealed, if there is "Constitutional Carry via Wisconsin Law", you may all find yourselves unwitting victims of Federal FELONY Prosecution - UNLESS - 1) WI creates an (optional) concealed carry permit system based on a background check - and 2) WI creates legislative language exempting Citizens with the (optional) WI permit from Federal GFSZ. Merely repealing the WI GFSZ statutes DOES NOT get around the Federal Law.

    Protias - you post on Utah Open Carry and also on Utah Concealed Carry, so you know this is my position and that of other CFP Insturctors in Utah - problems with Federal GFSZ since State Law cannot mute Federal Law - (as the Utah legislature introduces a State Bill for Constitutional Carry). Be careful what you ask for - you might just get it. It won't be what you wanted, but it will be what you asked for.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    So am I Protias, but it will not get any WI Citizen, or Citizen of any other State for that matter, past the Federal GFSZ law. Get a grip on that. The WI Legislature cannot overrule the Federal GFSZ statute. All it can do is create an (optional) permit system, "based on a background check", and then exempt such permit holders.

    My friends, I have tried to be polite and I have tried to be patient, but until and unless the Federal GFSZ law is repealed, if there is "Constitutional Carry via Wisconsin Law", you may all find yourselves unwitting victims of Federal FELONY Prosecution - UNLESS - 1) WI creates an (optional) concealed carry permit system based on a background check - and 2) WI creates legislative language exempting Citizens with the (optional) WI permit from Federal GFSZ. Merely repealing the WI GFSZ statutes DOES NOT get around the Federal Law.

    Protias - you post on Utah Open Carry and also on Utah Concealed Carry, so you know this is my position and that of other CFP Insturctors in Utah - problems with Federal GFSZ since State Law cannot mute Federal Law - (as the Utah legislature introduces a State Bill for Constitutional Carry). Be careful what you ask for - you might just get it. It won't be what you wanted, but it will be what you asked for.
    VT does not enforce the Federal GFSZ, why should WI?

    I rarely post on any other gun forum and do not belong to either Utah forums. So I'm not sure why you said that last part.
    Last edited by protias; 01-18-2011 at 10:10 PM.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    VT does not enforce the Federal GFSZ, why should WI?

    I rarely post on any other gun forum and do not belong to either Utah forums. So I'm not sure why you said that last part.
    Then there is somebody using your name and WI Open Carry avitar. I would be happy to "cut and paste" comments from Utah Open Carry and Utah Concealed Carry attributed to you to this forum for you to review - or even send the links to you via PM.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Let's put it here, too

    From Montana

    45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...chool-Zone-law
    If Montana can do it, why not Wisconsin

    Also, link to Montana's firearms laws
    http://www.doj.mt.gov/enforcement/cr...ledweapons.asp

    http://www.mtssa.org/mtlaws.phtml?co...1%2C+342+M.C.A.

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    VT does not enforce the Federal GFSZ, why should WI? :
    You make a valid point - but there are Federal Prosecutors in Wisconsin, are there not?
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    Then there is somebody using your name and WI Open Carry avitar. I would be happy to "cut and paste" comments from Utah Open Carry and Utah Concealed Carry attributed to you to this forum for you to review - or even send the links to you via PM.
    Send me a PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    You make a valid point - but there are Federal Prosecutors in Wisconsin, are there not?
    That, I do not know.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  11. #11
    McX
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    permits?! we dont need no steeeeenkin permits! dont need no school free gun zones.............er, ah, gun free school zones either!!!!

    and we for damns sure dont need no totality of circumstances!

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    You make a valid point - but there are Federal Prosecutors in Wisconsin, are there not?
    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Send me a PM.

    That, I do not know.
    Dig dig dig, search forum; wait 30 seconds, search forum; wait 30 seconds, AH-HA! I knew I posted this somewhere.

    United States v. Hoffmeyer

    My google-fu is weak today though and I can't find the actual opinion of the Federal Magistrate in Wisconsin. Basically though, he said that the revised GFSZ was still unconstitutional. However, I'm not sure it has any legal force as IIRC the case was thrown out because of an illegal search and not because of the unconstitutionality of the GFSZ. In the least, it gives an insight into what a federal magistrate in wisconsin thought.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 01-19-2011 at 09:03 AM.
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    Dig dig dig, search forum; wait 30 seconds, search forum; wait 30 seconds, AH-HA! I knew I posted this somewhere.

    United States v. Hoffmeyer

    My google-fu is weak today though and I can't find the actual opinion of the Federal Magistrate in Wisconsin. Basically though, he said that the revised GFSZ was still unconstitutional. However, I'm not sure it has any legal force as IIRC the case was thrown out because of an illegal search and not because of the unconstitutionality of the GFSZ. In the least, it gives an insight into what a federal magistrate in wisconsin thought.
    Thanks Brass!
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    I thought the federal gfsz was shot down. Or was that something else?

    Federal Court Strikes Down Gun-Free School Zones Law
    By Mark Walsh

    Congress overstepped its powers under the U.S. Constitution's commerce clause when it enacted a 1990 law that established "gun-free school zones,'' a federal appeals court has ruled.

    A three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit last month invalidated the law known as the Gun-Free School Zones Act, which makes it a federal crime for an adult to possess firearms within 1,000 feet of any public or private school.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbojohn41 View Post
    I thought the federal gfsz was shot down. Or was that something else?

    Federal Court Strikes Down Gun-Free School Zones Law
    By Mark Walsh

    Congress overstepped its powers under the U.S. Constitution's commerce clause when it enacted a 1990 law that established "gun-free school zones,'' a federal appeals court has ruled.

    A three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit last month invalidated the law known as the Gun-Free School Zones Act, which makes it a federal crime for an adult to possess firearms within 1,000 feet of any public or private school.
    They reenacted it in 95.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Fre...es_Act_of_1990
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    I see. Is it the fed or state one that Wi carry is going after?

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbojohn41 View Post
    I see. Is it the fed or state one that Wi carry is going after?
    Federal I believe.
    Last edited by protias; 01-19-2011 at 10:26 AM.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbojohn41 View Post
    I see. Is it the fed or state one that Wi carry is going after?
    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Federal I believe.
    State. Remember, the suit was started pre-Mcdonald v. Chicago.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 01-19-2011 at 10:28 AM.
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    State. Remember, the suit was started pre-Mcdonald v. Chicago.
    I had a 50/50 shot...
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    My friends, I am just as much for Constitutional Carry as the next freedom loving law abiding citizen of WI, but until and unless the Federal GFSZ is repealed, a permit based on a background check is the only way around the Federal GFSZ - AND - if and only if - the WI Legislature permits it. Please keep that in mind as you lobby your legislators for concealed carry in WI. The ideal situation would be - 1) Constitutional Carry (open or concealed) - - 2) Optional permit for travel reciprocity - - 3) Optional Permit based on a background check AND WI Legislation authorizing those with a WI (optional) permit to carry inside the Federal GFSZ. 4) The (optional) permit can be issued to out-of-state residents - or - those who pay property taxes in WI (if you want to be elitist - or deny the FIBS). I may no longer reside in WI, but I have family in WI and pay property taxes in WI.

    Jim
    I appreciate your point, however once they know you are willing to accept less, the benchmark just drops from there. Why give you what you want if I know you will accept less?
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Cool The Montana Approach

    As cited by Phred above, I verified the Montana Statute. I was unaware of this approach to defeating the Federal GFSZ and now "stand corrected" It appears to be a viable way to approach this hassle. To requote (taken from the Montana DOJ website:

    Montana Code Annotated

    45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act.

    It is important then in talking with WI Legislators about Constitutional Carry to point out how Montana handled this matter.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Annoyingly.........

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

    Although I'm not sure how well an actual prosecution based on the BATF's interpretation would hold up. In any case; I'm not even sure if this necessarily defeats the Montana provision either. Tyranny sucks....too much arbitrariness and such.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 01-19-2011 at 03:31 PM.
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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

    Although I'm not sure how well an actual prosecution based on the BATF's interpretation would hold up. In any case; I'm not even sure if this necessarily defeats the Montana provision either. Tyranny sucks....too much arbitrariness and such.
    +1 on that
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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