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Thread: Sultan, WA "Drug-free/gun-free school zone"?

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    Regular Member boosteddreams's Avatar
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    Sultan, WA "Drug-free/gun-free school zone"?

    Hello all,
    Geoff (yamichi) and I were in Sultan the other day and noticed several signs on the streets surrounding schools stating the area was a drug-free/gun-free zone. I looked on the city's website and couldn't find any city codes relating to this. I have never seen these signs anywhere and it was kind of a "WTF?" moment for me. This sounds like a blatant violation of preemption, of course. Does anyone here know anything else about that? Do they consider CPL/CCW holders "exempt" as stated in other (generic) gun-free school zone legislation? Has it been challenged?

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    Its part of Federal Law that a 1000 Ft zone be established where its gun free. I myself have no clue as to how it hasnt been challenged yet by the NRA or other gun Rights associations.

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    Regular Member boosteddreams's Avatar
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    How strange. I've never seen those signs anywhere else.

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Maybe you don't go to many schools?


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    Regular Member John Hardin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tannerwaterbury View Post
    Its part of Federal Law that a 1000 Ft zone be established where its gun free. I myself have no clue as to how it hasnt been challenged yet by the NRA or other gun Rights associations.
    It was already found unconstitutional once and recrafted to add a veneer of constitutionality by only applying to firearms that have "moved in or otherwise affects interstate commerce."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Fre...es_Act_of_1990

    It's probably not gotten a lot of hatred because it does not apply to in-state CPL holders, but the list of problems with it is serious and most people (like me until a few minutes ago) aren't aware of them all.

    Challenging it right now would still be bad press, let's get more fundamental USSC decisions on our side first. Something reining in the Commerce Clause abuses that does not involve firearms would be very helpful.

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    Regular Member boosteddreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenIsFaster View Post
    Maybe you don't go to many schools?
    That is very true, but I've driven by many (here in Washington, in California, and in Georgia) and have never seen the signs. They kind of took me by surprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hardin View Post
    It was already found unconstitutional once and recrafted to add a veneer of constitutionality by only applying to firearms that have "moved in or otherwise affects interstate commerce."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Fre...es_Act_of_1990

    It's probably not gotten a lot of hatred because it does not apply to in-state CPL holders, but the list of problems with it is serious and most people (like me until a few minutes ago) aren't aware of them all.

    Challenging it right now would still be bad press, let's get more fundamental USSC decisions on our side first. Something reining in the Commerce Clause abuses that does not involve firearms would be very helpful.
    Thanks for the extra info. I see your point about waiting to challenge it, though it's annoying to think that an OCer without his/her CPL would have to give the schools a wide berth if walking by. Since I have mine, though, and Geoff will have his soon, I think we'll let it lie and just make sure we're well-informed.

    Thanks again!

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    Regular Member 07Altima's Avatar
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    I have something to add

    In order for me to get to my house I have to pass a School no matter what! so I wonder if I will get into trouble for traveling home going past a school when the only way home is past a school. I do not feel that I should have to travel several miles out of the way to avoid the 3 schools from the 3 of 4 roads that lead to my residence. I wonder if I would have a case against the state for telling me that I can not come within 1000 ft. of a school. hell I live less than 1000 ft. from a school to be honest so in order to even have a gun in my home I am in violation of this BS law.

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    Regular Member 07Altima's Avatar
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    would that not be in violation of my 2nd Amendment right

    If I take my firearm out of my apartment, and walk to my car I am carrying in the 1000 ft. zone is this law not then in violation of the state constitution, as well as the federal.

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    Regular Member 07Altima's Avatar
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    also the only exemption

    the only exemption is for people dropping off or picking up their kids, well what about me I live 550 ft from one, and 200ft from another that means I am a Criminal for doing nothing wrong, I am a felon just for owning or storing a gun, or driving down the street to leave my house, or a felon just for taking my gun to my car. This really Really makes me angry. Do you guys have that attorney on hand I would love to see what he thinks of this.

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    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 07Altima View Post
    the only exemption is for people dropping off or picking up their kids, well what about me I live 550 ft from one, and 200ft from another that means I am a Criminal for doing nothing wrong, I am a felon just for owning or storing a gun, or driving down the street to leave my house, or a felon just for taking my gun to my car. This really Really makes me angry. Do you guys have that attorney on hand I would love to see what he thinks of this.
    You are fine with owning and storing, you just can't take it anywhere. Private property is exempted from the 1000' rule.
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak56 View Post
    You are fine with owning and storing, you just can't take it anywhere. Private property is exempted from the 1000' rule.
    I thought that it had been discussed somewhere that in the course of travel it was ok too, but I could be wrong.

    Washington doesn't seem to have concerned itself with this law, that I know of being a Federal law.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member 07Altima's Avatar
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    well just to get it home or to walk to the store

    I would be violating it if I was just walking to or from the store, or taking it to my house, that is if there is no clause for travel. But the fact remains that there is nowhere in that section any exemptions aside from dropping off or picking up, and there is nothing at all about travel.

    Travel may be exempt but it is not listed in the firearm codes, it may however be listed in the school codes.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    like ive already advised you before, get your CPL!!!
    it exempts you from the federal 1000' GFSZ!!
    it will also allow you to buy your gun, "cash and carry", if, or when, you actually do.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

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    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 07Altima View Post
    I would be violating it if I was just walking to or from the store, or taking it to my house, that is if there is no clause for travel. But the fact remains that there is nowhere in that section any exemptions aside from dropping off or picking up, and there is nothing at all about travel.

    Travel may be exempt but it is not listed in the firearm codes, it may however be listed in the school codes.
    Just to clarify:

    The 1000' zone is only in Federal law.

    The exemption for picking up or dropping off students is in State law.

    If you have a Washington State CPL, you must follow State Law. With a CPL, you may travel through the 1000' zone with no problem, as state law does not contain any 1000' zone.

    If you do not have a Washington State CPL, you are bound by the Federal law.

    There are provisions in the Federal law which cover the 'travel' question. You may carry through the 1000' zone in the following manner:
    (2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
    possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
    knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
    firearm -
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;
    (iii) that is -
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is
    on a motor vehicle;
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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    My question is how does a firearm that is already purchased affect interstate or foreign commerce?
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Regular Member Chap's Avatar
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    Wow, thanks for opening my eyes to this issue !!!!!!!!

    I use to consider myself as being diligent in my researcher prior to plotting my road trips out of Mississippi. I have a Mississippi Concealed Carry Permit/Fire Arms Permit. I carry concealed 24/7 so I conduct research on the Laws for the different states in which I need to travel thru. I have a safe in my vehicle to lock the weapon up to comply with States which don’t recognize my CCW Permit.

    Pack-N-Go Carry Concealed Trip Planner - http://test.carryconcealed.net/packngo/index.php

    NRAILA: 50 States gun laws
    http://www.NRAILA.org/GunLaws/

    Book I purchased and keep in the vehicle (Gun laws for the 50 States)
    http://www.gunlawguide.com/

    I read the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 - Wikipedia, listed above in an earlier Post by John Hardin. (Thanks John) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Fre...es_Act_of_1990

    I agree I am exempt in the State which issued my CCW. ie: Mississippi.

    I guess my concern/question for others who understand this issue is – How would you prepare with traveling outside the Issuing State for your CCW? I’m a believer in being fully compliant with the written law and it’s “intent”.

    Let me say while traveling I am oblivious of where school zones are, I will (NOT) be traveling to any schools for any reason. When making my Hotel reservations I never ask if they are within 1000 feet from a school.

    Thanks in advance to those who take the time to answer my question.

    Chap
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    My question is how does a firearm that is already purchased affect interstate or foreign commerce?
    It doesn't but who has the money to challenge it.

    And the crazy way they misinterpret what "affects" interstate commerce is mentally deranged.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    It doesn't but who has the money to challenge it.

    And the crazy way they misinterpret what "affects" interstate commerce is mentally deranged.
    Yep.
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chap View Post
    I use to consider myself as being diligent in my researcher prior to plotting my road trips out of Mississippi. I have a Mississippi Concealed Carry Permit/Fire Arms Permit. I carry concealed 24/7 so I conduct research on the Laws for the different states in which I need to travel thru. I have a safe in my vehicle to lock the weapon up to comply with States which don’t recognize my CCW Permit.

    <SNIP>
    You might also take note of www.handgunlaw.us as they are very active on keeping their pages up to date, and normally have country wide law updates within a day or two of its happening.

    I don't trust or buy books for this purpose, as carry laws are just too fluid right now to trust a book that was written 3 years ago, or even last year.

    The FGFSZ law is just plain stupid and out of touch with reality. If it were actually enforced at any real level beyond a "tack on" charge for other grater crimes, we would be seeing a serious issue in the country. I mean seriously, as much as I travel, even though I have permits/licenses that cover me in 36 states, I have probably broken this federal "law" over 1000+ times (according to the letter of that law) just in the last 8 years alone. You cant help but be in violation if you are carrying outside of your home state and don't have a permit/license from the state you happen to be working, living or traveling in at the time, as school zones are EVERYWHERE and not realistically avoidable. Just look at the example of a state like Vermont where everyone who carries is in violation at one point or another.

    You learn just how seriously out of touch this law is when you try to carry in California, since they have adopted this law at the state level. Its just one more example of harassment legislation intended to make carry so complicated that it dissuades many from even trying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    It doesn't but who has the money to challenge it.

    And the crazy way they misinterpret what "affects" interstate commerce is mentally deranged.
    That was the only thing I could come up with as well.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    Regular Member Chap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    You might also take note of www.handgunlaw.us as they are very active on keeping their pages up to date, and normally have country wide law updates within a day or two of its happening.

    I don't trust or buy books for this purpose, as carry laws are just too fluid right now to trust a book that was written 3 years ago, or even last year.

    Thanks for the info, glad to see it was from a fellow Coastie to boot......
    I especially like the last bit of info HandGunLaw.us provides, that being the States info was last reviewed and updated section.
    Last edited by Chap; 01-21-2011 at 12:06 PM.
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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chap View Post
    Thanks for the info, glad to see it was from a fellow Coastie to boot......
    I especially like the last bit of info HandGunLaw.us provides, that being the States info was last reviewed and updated section.
    Anytime brother (or sister?) and welcome to OCDO!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chap View Post
    Let me say while traveling I am oblivious of where school zones are, I will (NOT) be traveling to any schools for any reason. When making my Hotel reservations I never ask if they are within 1000 feet from a school.
    Keep in mind that you are, according to the law quoted, licensed by the state if the state you are traveling through recognizes your permit. If the state you are traveling through does not recognize your permit then your gun is presumably unloaded and secured according to state law and therefore you are complying with part iii) of the federal law.

    There is no reason that you should ever have to figure out where every school zone in every one horse town is located.

    As far as the hotel room, when you are renting and occupying it I believe that qualifies as private property, although i can't provide you with any legal citations.

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    Regular Member Chap's Avatar
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    Another..... Wow moment for me. Nice catch heresolong. When I first read the cite, I believed I read the exemption was only for - in the CCW "issuing" state. After re-reading the cite I agree with you it doesn't say "issuing"

    Great observation, I feel better now.

    Thanks,

    I am in compliance.

    Chap
    Kimber Ultra Carry II .45 ACP, 3" barrel 1911 with a Mitch Rosen holster

    New additions to the family -
    XDm .45 ACP 02FEB11,
    Ruger LCP .380 05FEB11

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    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chap View Post
    Another..... Wow moment for me. Nice catch heresolong. When I first read the cite, I believed I read the exemption was only for - in the CCW "issuing" state. After re-reading the cite I agree with you it doesn't say "issuing"

    Great observation, I feel better now.

    Thanks,

    I am in compliance.

    Chap
    No so fast.

    The law states:

    licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located
    There is a difference between 'licensed by the state' and having a license honored by the state.

    Here's the BATFE's take on this : BATFE LETTER
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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