Sultan, WA "Drug-free/gun-free school zone"?

FMCDH said:

You might also take note of www.handgunlaw.us as they are very active on keeping their pages up to date, and normally have country wide law updates within a day or two of its happening.

I don't trust or buy books for this purpose, as carry laws are just too fluid right now to trust a book that was written 3 years ago, or even last year.

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Thanks for the info, glad to see it was from a fellow Coastie to boot......
I especially like the last bit of info HandGunLaw.us provides, that being the States info was last reviewed and updated section.

Chap said:

Thanks for the info, glad to see it was from a fellow Coastie to boot......
I especially like the last bit of info HandGunLaw.us provides, that being the States info was last reviewed and updated section.

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Anytime brother (or sister?) and welcome to OCDO!

Chap said:

Let me say while traveling I am oblivious of where school zones are, I will (NOT) be traveling to any schools for any reason. When making my Hotel reservations I never ask if they are within 1000 feet from a school.

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Keep in mind that you are, according to the law quoted, licensed by the state if the state you are traveling through recognizes your permit. If the state you are traveling through does not recognize your permit then your gun is presumably unloaded and secured according to state law and therefore you are complying with part iii) of the federal law.

There is no reason that you should ever have to figure out where every school zone in every one horse town is located.

As far as the hotel room, when you are renting and occupying it I believe that qualifies as private property, although i can't provide you with any legal citations.

Another..... Wow moment for me. Nice catch heresolong. When I first read the cite, I believed I read the exemption was only for - in the CCW "issuing" state. After re-reading the cite I agree with you it doesn't say "issuing"

Great observation, I feel better now.

Thanks,

I am in compliance.

Chap

Chap said:

Another..... Wow moment for me. Nice catch heresolong. When I first read the cite, I believed I read the exemption was only for - in the CCW "issuing" state. After re-reading the cite I agree with you it doesn't say "issuing"

Great observation, I feel better now.

Thanks,

I am in compliance.

Chap

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No so fast.

The law states:

licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located

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There is a difference between 'licensed by the state' and having a license honored by the state.

Here's the BATFE's take on this : BATFE LETTER

Chap said:

Another..... Wow moment for me. Nice catch heresolong. When I first read the cite, I believed I read the exemption was only for - in the CCW "issuing" state. After re-reading the cite I agree with you it doesn't say "issuing"

Great observation, I feel better now.

Thanks,

I am in compliance.

Chap

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You may want to re-read the wording again, as I think your first impression was more correct....paying close attention to the wording in red, as it is specifically quoted as the key phrase by the BATFE letter as provided in a previous post. The same letter is available in the Wiki link below.

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
do so by the State in which the school zone is located
or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of
the State or political subdivision requires that, before
an individual obtain s such a license, the law enforcement
authorities of the State or political subdivision verify
that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

The entire law can be examined here...
http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf

Also, a breakdown as given on Wiki...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

An examination from a law school student makes for interesting reading...
http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?50+Duke+L.+J.+637+pdf

If after all that reading your still confused, don't feel bad, because your SUPPOSE to be confused...that is the overall purpose, and intent, to ultimately keep you from carrying due to the "hassle factor" as I described earlier.

Ok now my head hurts

I went to bed feeling good last night. I wake up and now I'm non-compliant again.

How's a common lay person, non-lawyer type suppose to figure this out? Damn the anti-rights nuts. Thank God for OpenCarry.org and its freedom fighters.

I'm a simple man (like Bill O'Reilly) says. I just want to live my life and not cause problems, but there are way to many regulations in this country.

Guess I should write a letter to BATFE and inquire for myself.This BATFE LETTER was written in 2002, possibly I'll get a different response. I found in the Coast Guard that interpretation of policy often changes as people rotate thru offices. It often just depends on who is sitting behind the desk at the time of questioning.

I know I am good citizen and have nothing to fear from my routine travels. I just play devils advocate with everything, and if I'm aware of the correct answer then I lean towards doing the correct thing.

Thanks again for the responses and observations. If I find anything out I'll post it here to the Forum.

Chap

Chap said:

<SNIP>

Guess I should write a letter to BATFE and inquire for myself.This BATFE LETTER was written in 2002, possibly I'll get a different response. I found in the Coast Guard that interpretation of policy often changes as people rotate thru offices. It often just depends on who is sitting behind the desk at the time of questioning.

I know I am good citizen and have nothing to fear from my routine travels. I just play devils advocate with everything, and if I'm aware of the correct answer then I lean towards doing the correct thing.

Thanks again for the responses and observations. If I find anything out I'll post it here to the Forum.

Chap

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Your very correct, its very much about interpretation and how each individual or group in that process interprets it, from you, the arresting officer, your lawyer, the prosecutor, the judge and the jury, even the media and public, everyone is going to have an opinion based upon their own education and experiences.

You can even see how there is no solid consensus here on the forum about what exactly that one small phrase means, but in following a law like this that just seems nuts, you have to take into consideration the three main factors of its enforcement.

1. How is a law suppose to be enforced?
2. How is a law actually enforced?
3. How is a law likely to be enforced on you?

Personally, I don't worry about it because I see how the facts of 2 & 3 stack against what I interpret 1 to mean. That your doing your own research when you have questions is exactly how you should feel. BZ!

Now your learning!

Ok.... here goes please be patient with my post

Guess this goes to my original shock about finding out how the GFSZ affect my travel plans. It was suggested I reference - United States Code “USC” cite

Title 18 U.S.C Section 922(q)
(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
firearm -
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is -
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is
on a motor vehicle;

Its been suggested that: ( I’m paraphrasing to hit key words)
922(q)(2)(A) makes it unlawful to possess a firearm in a school zone.
922(2)(B) says (A) doesn’t apply to possession of a fire arm if (ii) individual possessing a firearm license by the state in which the school zone is located.

OK so far I’m onboard USC is the law of the land. So far it appears clear to me. I have a Mississippi CCW, so I need not worry about lawful carry of my weapon while driving around home state. No need to plot out all the school zones.

Question is if I travel to Washington State. Using NavyLT’s links from an earlier post.

I first use Pack–N-Go http://apps.carryconcealed.net/packngo/results.php?ps=24&nrp=N&nrps=&states=mississippi,washington,
1. Mississippi (Your Starting State)
2. Washington (Your Ending State)
This State DOES Honor Your CCW Permit.
Reciprocity Info: http://www.atg.wa.gov/page.aspx?id=7772

RCW 9.41.280
Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities — Penalty — Exceptions.
(1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

(a) Any firearm;

(2) Any such person violating subsection (1) of this section is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1)(a) of this section, the person shall have his or her concealed pistol license, if any revoked for a period of three years. Anyone convicted under this subsection is prohibited from applying for a concealed pistol license for a period of three years. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

(e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

(f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;



I now have the above trip info, I have a Valid CCW, the destination state accepts my CCW.


Now my Questions: Since I travel with my weapon, Condition 3, Concealed Carry – NOT locked up……..
1) Do I have to plot out all the school zones, while in Washington State?
2) Worst case scenario - if I was in a vehicle accident in a school zone but not on school property. The Washington police became aware of my weapon & my valid CCW. Let’s say for this discussion they wanted to press the USC 1000 foot school zone rule for whatever reason.

From my research I would be in trouble, RIGHT? (my CCW was issued in MS. I can’t use USC 922(2)(B) so they charge me under US Code
But not under RCW 9.41.280(1) since I'm not on the school property and Washington State RCW doesn't have 1000 foot rule.
Washington state’s Exception - RCW 9.41.280(3)(e) & (f) doesn't come into play either.

Thoughts comments? I think I quoted everything properly but it gets confusing after awhile. I hope this makes sense.

Hey NavyLT, what are you going to do when you put on LCDR? NavyLCDR???????

Yea same here

Yep, I've been reading your posts for (Inform the officer or not when concealed carry?) Seems other forums have allot of personal opinions.

CG has trained me in Authority & Jurisdiction for boarding team member as well as boarding officer. 9+ years as a Marine Inspector reading USC, 46 & 33 CFR's as part of my job.

My opinion is OpenCarry.org deals much better in the true legal issues.

Thanks

joeroket said:

My question is how does a firearm that is already purchased affect interstate or foreign commerce?

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Because Title 18 U.S.C §922(q) GFSZ says

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce...

Remember that ignorance of the law is no defense.

Chap said:

Let me say while traveling I am oblivious of where school zones are...

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The Gun Free School Zones Act of 1995 States:

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm...at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

I hope you didn't mean "oblivious" literally, most "School Zones" are well marked and you should take care when driving near a school.

be kerful

Yes Oblivious would be correct

I just traveled north from MS to MI for some snowboarding. I checked states for who accepted my CCW. I read the specifics on the state laws.

I didn't how ever goggle every school along the route. 16 hrs each way. (do you? are you really aware of all the schools along your long haul travel?) Before you make a hotel reservation out of state do you really Google the hotel then check for school zones nearby or ask front desk? Really? I can say honestly I have never done it.

Heck I crank up the music, listen to my GPS and radar detector and watch out for traffic. I am traveling as safe as I can.

I was unaware of the 1000 foot school zone rule until my recent posts. Now that I'm aware of it & I have noticed it listed in some state CCW rules. I will attempt to shun these school zones as much as possible.

I was asking on this forum as to how they deal with the rule when outside their home state. (I wish to stay legal) If I see a sign I don't plan on whipping a u-turn on the spot but I surely won't linger or stop.

If the law read school property then we would all be better off. I have no need to step foot on school property even in my home state. BUT 1000 feet from school property could be from the corner of the school parking lot out 1000 feet encompassing quite a few main roads especially in a small town.

oldbanger said:

The Gun Free School Zones Act of 1995 States:

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm...at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

I hope you didn't mean "oblivious" literally, most "School Zones" are well marked and you should take care when driving near a school.

be kerful

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Not always. Usually they are marked only in areas where there will be school pedestrian traffic and the speed limit is above 25 Mph. Lots of side streets don't have signs.

amlevin said:

Not always. Usually they are marked only in areas where there will be school pedestrian traffic and the speed limit is above 25 Mph. Lots of side streets don't have signs.

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Side streets are definitely not well marked. If they were, there woud be a sign directly in front of my house (1000' from the school). I can leave home, drive past the school without seeing any school zone sign, or the flashing signs for the 20mph school limit, until I'm past the school and see the 'end school zone' sign.

The school zone signs for the speed limit are not even related to the actual location of the school, but are defined by the locations of the crosswalks near the school. The local school used to have a school zone which began and ended before you reached the school on the main road. They finally added a crosswalk at the other side of the school so the 20mph school zone actually
went past the school.

NavyLT said:

My take on it is that with only a MS permit, your are violating the Federal 1000' school zone law 18 USC 922 anytime you carry the gun loaded within 1000' of a school anywhere outside the state of MS.

In reality, the only concern any LEO has (especially in Washington) over the Federal school zone law is when the Feds get involved in a shooting incident. In your auto accident scenario, I think all the local LEO are going to be concerned about is a valid CCW due to carrying a loaded gun in a vehicle or concealed on the person in accordance with state law. In addition, in order to prosecute you for violating the Federal law only, as I understand it, the case would have to be in a Federal court with a Federal prosecutor. I doubt very seriously anyone is going to take that one on, absent a serious shooting incident.

I would say, that technically, you would be breaking the Federal law outside MS.

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+1, I agree with LT.

Like I said before, I just make sure not to commit federal offenses, and I figure I am pretty well covered. If I ever do "win the lottery" and end up somehow arrested for the mere carry of a firearm in the "magic zone" of a state that my license/permit is otherwise recognized, well...then they will have one hell of a fight on their hands in convicting me.