Stupid provision - restaurants and bars

I understand and support no carry in a bar, too much testesterone and macho may contribute to a problem. But in a fine dining restaurant where a drink or wine is served, I see no issue. Particularly since going to and from such an establishment may classify one as a person of means, likely wearing a Rolex, or jewelry, driving a nice car, you become a target just by the assumptions which go along with your choice of dining. The law in Florida is vague on this issue, one area says NO of they serve alcohol, another area says apparently OK if alcohol sales/service is not the predominant business. Get rid of the grey area. If they serve food, you can carry, if its a bar only then not. Or eliminate the rule all together and let the bar owner decide and post a sign. Like cigar friendly establishments, let the market place decide what they want. You dont want my gun, you dont want my business etc.

MY GUN SAVED MY LIFE IN AN ALMOST MUGGING, I CARRY EVERY DAY. Don't even think about telling me to give up my guns.

Welcome to OCDO!!

What is your definition of a "bar"?

As long as the bar income does not exceed 50% of the restaurants income, and you are not in the bar, area, then carry is no issue. I do it all the time.

Mike

Glockster, it depends on where you're trying to sit in your fine dining restaurant. Are you trying to sit at the bar?

The law states "any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcohol".

Meaning, and I know it's far from "fine dining", but, most folks can relate better, you CAN sit in Chili's, enjoy your dinner, even order some drinks while carrying concealed. (There is no law in Florida making drinking while carrying illegal.) You CANNOT however go stand or sit at the bar where drinks are being dispensed.

There is some controversy regarding the seating area around the bar "area" of a restaurant. Most restaurants have a kind of separated area that one might call the "bar or bar area". With booths/tables/high-top tables/etc. surrounding the bar itself. The debate is whether or not those tables/booths are considered part of the "establishment licensed to dispense alcohol." Many contend that to honor the law, one stays out of that separated "bar area" all together. Others argue that the law only points to the mahogany BAR itself.

There is currently, no known case law that defines the "portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcohol." Make your own choices. However, if you're sitting in what most would call the dining portion of the restaurant....carry with confidence and stay safe!

mavidal said:

As long as the bar income does not exceed 50% of the restaurants income, and you are not in the bar, area, then carry is no issue. I do it all the time.

Mike

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You are mistaken.

JeepSeller said:

Glockster, it depends on where you're trying to sit in your fine dining restaurant. Are you trying to sit at the bar?

The law states "any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcohol".

Meaning, and I know it's far from "fine dining", but, most folks can relate better, you CAN sit in Chili's, enjoy your dinner, even order some drinks while carrying concealed. (There is no law in Florida making drinking while carrying illegal.) You CANNOT however go stand or sit at the bar where drinks are being dispensed.

There is some controversy regarding the seating area around the bar "area" of a restaurant. Most restaurants have a kind of separated area that one might call the "bar or bar area". With booths/tables/high-top tables/etc. surrounding the bar itself. The debate is whether or not those tables/booths are considered part of the "establishment licensed to dispense alcohol." Many contend that to honor the law, one stays out of that separated "bar area" all together. Others argue that the law only points to the mahogany BAR itself.

There is currently, no known case law that defines the "portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcohol." Make your own choices. However, if you're sitting in what most would call the dining portion of the restaurant....carry with confidence and stay safe!

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I think you need to go back and read the law.

any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose

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Stay away from the bar and you're good to go. I eat out almost 5 days a week and never had a problem. been carrying for more than 20 years.

This sounds like double standards to me

Glockster said:

I understand and support no carry in a bar, too much testesterone and macho may contribute to a problem. But in a fine dining restaurant where a drink or wine is served, I see no issue. Particularly since going to and from such an establishment may classify one as a person of means, likely wearing a Rolex, or jewelry, driving a nice car, you become a target just by the assumptions which go along with your choice of dining. The law in Florida is vague on this issue, one area says NO of they serve alcohol, another area says apparently OK if alcohol sales/service is not the predominant business. Get rid of the grey area. If they serve food, you can carry, if its a bar only then not. Or eliminate the rule all together and let the bar owner decide and post a sign. Like cigar friendly establishments, let the market place decide what they want. You dont want my gun, you dont want my business etc.



MY GUN SAVED MY LIFE IN AN ALMOST MUGGING, I CARRY EVERY DAY. Don't even think about telling me to give up my guns.

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Well this sounds to me that you are a "higher" lol class person with money. If you believe that this is how you think it should be, that only the higher class of people are exempt and the rest of us don't have the same rights, because we don't have money and can't afford those kinds of places, we don't have the right to carry . And once again it sound like somebody that thinks his or her rights are more important than others. just like the Anti's out here. Well let me tell you what. My family and myself's protection means more to me than your option. And that all Americans are equal and have the same rights no matter what any one says and just because some one goes to a Honky Tonk should not matter if they want to carry because like myself I don't drink and I like going to Honky Tonks to dance and spend time with friends and family without drinking is my choice and as you can tell THIS PISSES ME OFF TO A BITTER POINT that some think they should have more rights than others. and also that people should have the right to carry no matter where they go. but if you want to add restriction then as far as drinking goes then that would be the same as any other drinking offence if over a certain limit. but that is only ones thoughts but to say because we are rich and only go to rich places and because we think we are better than others we should be allowed. that is a "HYPOCRITE" and if I have read something more into this than what really was said, MY Apologies
But to my defense I despise people that try to push their thinking into my life. and it does Not matter where we go we have the right to self protection. also in this country you are innocent until guilty. And just because there will be auto accidents on holidays doesn't mean on New Years or St. Pat or others like them. that the law shall include all automobiles are forbidden to be driven. this is ridiculous. have you ever heard of "GETTING ROLLED" this happens to people at bars and they have the same rights as everybody else .. And don't forget I'm not a Drinker and I support this.

Glockster said:

I understand and support no carry in a bar, too much testesterone and macho may contribute to a problem.

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Ignorance has led you to this position.

Many States (including here in my current State of residence) allow both CC and OC in bars, there aren't any crazy shoot outs here.

Here in Indiana there is 100~ years of history to prove you are completely off base.

You have a Right to defend yourself. Being in a 'bar' (however you define it) is no different.

Also, just to further clarify Indiana's laws, there is NO brandishing law nor is there a limit on the amount of alcohol you can have in your blood while carrying.... obviously there is a law against ACTUALLY threatening someone and if you get drunk, you can be charged with public intox.

Growing up and spending the majority of my life in FLA I thought we had good gun laws. Being out of State for several years has me thinking Florida has some of the worst gun laws in the country.

brboyer said:

I think you need to go back and read the law.

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I paraphrased the law. Didn't have time to dig up the exact statute and quote it. Only you are that obsessive. *grin*

My explanation should be fairly valid though.

brboyer said:

You are mistaken.

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Brain fart on my end, I was thinking of the smoking rule. Thanks for pointing out my error. Others cleared it up, as long as you are not in the bar area of a restaurant you're ok.

Mike

JeepSeller said:

I paraphrased the law. Didn't have time to dig up the exact statute and quote it. Only you are that obsessive. *grin*
My explanation should be fairly valid though.

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;-)
I normally use the term 'Anal' to describe myself.
However, when discussing laws and such, it's important to be anal. Words, and punctuation are important, they actually mean something. - Sometimes it could mean the difference between a Felony and completely lawful activity.

mavidal said:

Brain fart on my end, I was thinking of the smoking rule. Thanks for pointing out my error. Others cleared it up, as long as you are not in the bar area of a restaurant you're ok.

Mike

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I was thinking of the smoking rule

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You're mistaken there as well....
Standalone bars (where smoking is legal) cannot receive more than 10% of their revenue from food.

as long as you are not in the bar area of a restaurant you're ok

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Actually, the plain text of that portion of 790.06 (if you can call it plain) states (paraphrased) that is unlawful to carry a concealed firearm into the portion of an establishment primarily devoted to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.
We (and the courts) have to presume that he legislature used 'dispense', and not another word like 'serve' for a reason.

Dispense: To deal out in parts or portions.

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Every bar or restaurant I've even been in only dispenses at the actual bar - because that's where the bottles are.

wait wait wait wait. so i can have a drink or two while carrying concealed at dinner?

Personally, I'm against any restrictions on carry locations (With the possible exception of the 'secure' areas of a jail/prison). That being said, if a state MUST have a restriction RE; alcohol, then I think that Washington has about the ideal wording that can be had:

RCW 9.41.300(1)(d) That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age

This clears the way for carry at an Applebee's (for example) so long as you remain in the upper perimeter 'restaurant' area and do not enter the lower 'bar' area (I call it the 'pit'). None of this '50% of revenue' stuff...anyplace your child can go, your gun can go.

hammer6 said:

wait wait wait wait. so i can have a drink or two while carrying concealed at dinner?

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You can get polluted while legally carrying. Though, I don't recommend it. You're reflexes are likely to be too impaired to defend yourself properly and you could even result in an attacker disarming you. Now you have an attacker with two weapons to deal with in your impaired state. Not gonna be a good night. Have an trusted armed Designated Driver.

There is no law in Florida that makes drinking while legally carrying illegal.

As we've been pointing out, just make sure you do all your drinking away from the "bar" as defined above.

See also 790.151 FS

I addition to it being a tactical disadvantage to be polluted, it is unlawful to have a loaded gun in ones hand when under the influence of alcohol. While lawful self defense is exempted, such handling activities as target practice, or hunting is a no-no. In excess of .05% can be intoxicated depending on behavior and .10% is prima facie evidence.

Glockster said:

....... eliminate the rule all together and let the bar owner decide and post a sign......

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This would not do anything because even if the establishment posted a sign it would not make it law. They could only refuse you service and ask you to leave but just because they post a sign it would not be upheld by LEO.

I can't say I relish the idea of drunk people carrying, but it's not the same as drunk people handling or shooting; so it cannot be equated to drinking and driving.

Drinking and Carrying is more accurately compared to Drinking while having car keys in your pocket.

The law makes sense. Possessing a car while being drunk should not be a crime, and it isn't. Possessing a gun while being drunk is no different, and treated no differently. It makes sense.

I don't think I want drunk people at the range, tho.... Granted, guns are far less dangerous and far easier to operate than a car.... It's a bad idea to drink while racing at the race track, too.

Prometheus said:

Ignorance has led you to this position.

Many States (including here in my current State of residence) allow both CC and OC in bars, there aren't any crazy shoot outs here.

Here in Indiana there is 100~ years of history to prove you are completely off base.

You have a Right to defend yourself. Being in a 'bar' (however you define it) is no different.

Also, just to further clarify Indiana's laws, there is NO brandishing law nor is there a limit on the amount of alcohol you can have in your blood while carrying.... obviously there is a law against ACTUALLY threatening someone and if you get drunk, you can be charged with public intox.

Growing up and spending the majority of my life in FLA I thought we had good gun laws. Being out of State for several years has me thinking Florida has some of the worst gun laws in the country.

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When I was in IN, I was at the bar, eating and drinking, and no one got shot. Imagine that?! The inanimate object didn't jump out of its holster and start shooting.