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U.S. Security Clearances

M

McX

Guest
For decades, the standard Soyuz survival pack has included a gun. And not just any gun, but a deluxe all-in-one weapon with three barrels and a folding stock that doubles as a shovel and contains a swing-out machete. Three types of ammunition — rifle bullets, shotgun shells and flares — come in a belt attached to the gun.

i have Got to get me one of these!

added on edit: no flashlight? i'll have to add one!
 
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M

McX

Guest
A firearm doubling as a shovel?? That is an ND waiting to happen! Only you won't shoot yourself in the foot.

yes, but you can dig your own grave, and plant yourself in it, with one fell swoop.
 

Grapeshot

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When firing a gun in outer space, you'd best be tethered in place.

Also wonder about recoil in such a low gravity environment - the weight of the gun would have a negligible effect in absorbing recoil.
 

eye95

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When firing a gun in outer space, you'd best be tethered in place.

Also wonder about recoil in such a low gravity environment - the weight of the gun would have a negligible effect in absorbing recoil.

The muzzle velocity of the bullet times its mass will equal your velocity backwards times your mass added to the gun's mass. You may not move in the opposite direction of the bullet very fast, but you'd better have a way back.
 

Grapeshot

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In space, no one can smell you stink.

Think anaerobic bacteria - much more virulent than aerobic. Since odor is nothing more than very tiny particulate, I submit that there would indeed be an odor.

Is there a stink, if nobody is there to smell it? Just like the tree falling in the woods, molecules and the motion thereof creates the result - not whether there is a receptor.

*********************

When firing a gun in outer space, you'd best be tethered in place.

Also wonder about recoil in such a low gravity environment - the weight of the gun would have a negligible effect in absorbing recoil.
 

eye95

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Think anaerobic bacteria - much more virulent than aerobic. Since odor is nothing more than very tiny particulate, I submit that there would indeed be an odor.

Is there a stink, if nobody is there to smell it? Just like the tree falling in the woods, molecules and the motion thereof creates the result - not whether there is a receptor.

*********************

When firing a gun in outer space, you'd best be tethered in place.

Also wonder about recoil in such a low gravity environment - the weight of the gun would have a negligible effect in absorbing recoil.

Actually, the weight of the gun won't matter. It is the mass (of the gun and of you), which exists independent of gravity, that would absorb the recoil.
 

Grapeshot

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Actually, the weight of the gun won't matter. It is the mass (of the gun and of you), which exists independent of gravity, that would absorb the recoil.

Think that the weight (effect of gravity) matters very much.

On the moon, the force of firing a gun and your mass (incl gun) are consistent with conditions on earth. The only variable being weight which is an effect of gravity.

The effort/force to move 10 lbs 1 foot is 1/10th of the effort required to move 100 lbs one ft.

As I understand it, it takes more fuel to lift a rocket free from earth (amount of fuel vs payload) than it does for comparable weights in space. Same reason that a heavily loaded vehicle gets less mileage than an empty one - everything is the same but the weight.
 

eye95

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Think that the weight (effect of gravity) matters very much.

On the moon, the force of firing a gun and your mass (incl gun) are consistent with conditions on earth. The only variable being weight which is an effect of gravity.

The effort/force to move 10 lbs 1 foot is 1/10th of the effort required to move 100 lbs one ft.

As I understand it, it takes more fuel to lift a rocket free from earth (amount of fuel vs payload) than it does for comparable weights in space. Same reason that a heavily loaded vehicle gets less mileage than an empty one - everything is the same but the weight.

Lifting is fighting gravity, working against that force. When you fire in zero-g, you are not fighting gravity.

However, moving mass, even in zero-g, requires a force be applied. As a matter of fact, that is how they "weigh" astronauts in space. A machine applies a force and measures the acceleration of the astronaut. Using F=ma, they solve for the mass. Multiply that mass in kg by about 2.2, and that yields the number of pounds a person would see on a scale on the Earth.

So, when you fire a gun in space, some of the energy will go to moving the bullet and some of the energy will go to moving you and the gun. How that energy is divided will be determined by the relative masses of the bullet and the you/gun package. If you and the gun have 500 times the mass of the bullet (that is to say that, on the Earth, you'd weigh 500 times the bullet), then the bullet will move 500 times as fast forward as you do backward. You and the bullet will separate with approximately the same muzzle velocity as you would on the Earth. Of course, the atmosphere on the Earth, combined with your ability to resist the recoil while in contact with the Earth, will produce a slightly smaller muzzle velocity on the Earth.

I am probably sounding a bit pedagogic, but I can't help it. I taught Space Science for too many years.
 

Grapeshot

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I am probably sounding a bit pedagogic, but I can't help it. I taught Space Science for too many years.

I hope to never stop learning - that is why I pursued this. My deductive reasoning seemed so logical and direct.

While i appreciate and don't dismiss your reply, I'm having trouble rationalizing why the lighter weight vehicle then is more efficient. Is is simply that the interior contents are part of the computation of mass, thereby maintaining the validity of the axiom?
 

eye95

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I hope to never stop learning - that is why I pursued this. My deductive reasoning seemed so logical and direct.

While i appreciate and don't dismiss your reply, I'm having trouble rationalizing why the lighter weight vehicle then is more efficient. Is is simply that the interior contents are part of the computation of mass, thereby maintaining the validity of the axiom?

The energy needed to move mass, m, at velocity, v, = mv^2. So, to move an object with twice the mass requires twice the energy.

At the surface of the Earth, mass and weight are directly proportionate, therefore the two concepts are often confused for each other.

To lift an object that is experiencing gravity, you not only have to put energy to move the object (mv^2), you have to also put energy into it to raise it to height, h. That energy = mgh, where g is the acceleration due to gravity. To lift a rocket from the Moon, mv^2 would be the same as on Earth. However, g on the Moon is 1/6 that of g on the Earth, so less energy is needed to lift objects on the Moon.

Weight is a force. F=ma (force = mass times acceleration), so W=mg (weight = mass times acceleration due to gravity). Once again, g on the Moon is 1/6 g on the Earth, so objects are easier to lift on the Moon. They are still just as hard to push, since you are not fighting gravity, so g does not enter into the calculation.

Now, I know I went six ways from Sunday on that answer, but I wasn't sure where the disconnect was. I threw the whole pot of pasta at the wall to see what would stick.
 

Grapeshot

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Believe it or not I understood that completely - a testament your ability to break something down into digestible parts.

And yes I was confusing weight and mass as I experience it, but I will not confuse the two again. Thanks.

So my 1911 will feel lighter on my hip and in my hands, but will shoot the same whether here or on the moon. :D
 
M

McX

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Jesus Christ guys, it's like listening to the Vulcans on here. C'mon you bunch of pointy eared calculators, lets all go down to the Holo-Deck, and run the program that lets us play with one of these............can i get a boo-ya?.....nope....i swear Vulcans are just no damn fun!

program set to run on Holo-Deck 9:http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=658
 

eye95

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Believe it or not I understood that completely - a testament your ability to break something down into digestible parts.

And yes I was confusing weight and mass as I experience it, but I will not confuse the two again. Thanks.

So my 1911 will feel lighter on my hip and in my hands, but will shoot the same whether here or on the moon. :D

From the weight and mass perspective, 100%.

No air resistance on the Moon and lower gravity will affect the trajectory of the bullet. It will slow less and drop less. Therefore, it will travel further.

BTW, if you fire a bullet fast enough, so that its drop exactly corresponds with the curvature of the Moon, it will never land. That is called "orbit." Mars has a moon that has so little gravity that a Major League pitcher should be able to put a baseball into orbit around that moon. I don't know what speed would be necessary to orbit our Moon close to its surface, but I doubt a 1911 bullet could achieve that speed. However, it would travel quite far before biting the Moon dust.
 

eye95

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Joined
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Messages
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Jesus Christ guys, it's like listening to the Vulcans on here. C'mon you bunch of pointy eared calculators, lets all go down to the Holo-Deck, and run the program that lets us play with one of these............can i get a boo-ya?.....nope....i swear Vulcans are just no damn fun!

program set to run on Holo-Deck 9:http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=658

Oh, why don't you just live long and prosper!
 
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