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Thread: House Bills 4009 and 4010 of 2011 on-line petition

  1. #1
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    House Bills 4009 and 4010 of 2011 on-line petition

    Dear Michigan Open Carry Members, and fellow 2nd Amendment Right Supporters

    A petition to submit to the Michigan State Legislature in regards to House Bills 4009 and 4010 of 2011 has been started. This petition will be submitted to all members of the Michigan State Legislature and to the Governor. I ask that you sign this petition and forward it to everyone you know. Let us send a clear message to those who represent us.

    http://www.petitiononline.com/MIHB4009/petition.html
    --
    Sincerely,

    Scott Webb
    President - Michigan Open Carry
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    I urge people to sign this petition and send the link to others. I do not believe an online petition is even remotely as important as calling legislators' offices or speaking with them face to face, though. Please support the petition IN ADDITION to contacting your reps directly and fostering grass roots support. Please discuss this issue with others likely to support this, assisting them if necessary in contacting our legislators. Thank you.

  4. #4
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsf View Post
    I urge people to sign this petition and send the link to others. I do not believe an online petition is even remotely as important as calling legislators' offices or speaking with them face to face, though. Please support the petition IN ADDITION to contacting your reps directly and fostering grass roots support. Please discuss this issue with others likely to support this, assisting them if necessary in contacting our legislators. Thank you.
    This may make it easier here are their emails and a sample letter. Modify as you feel fit.


    JohnWalsh@house.mi.gov; KurtHeise@house.mi.gov; JudGilbert@house.mi.gov;
    kennethhorn@house.mi.gov; PaulScott@house.mi.gov; KurtDamrow@house.mi.gov; PaulMuxlow@house.mi.gov;
    BradJacobsen@house.mi.gov; PeterPettalia@house.mi.gov; patsomerville@house.mi.gov; markmeadows@house.mi.gov; bobconstan@house.mi.gov; stacyerwinoakes@house.mi.gov; lisabrown@house.mi.gov; jeffirwin@house.mi.gov; philcavanagh@house.mi.gov; johnolumba@house.mi.gov


    Dear Committee Chairman:

    I am in favor of rescinding all gun-free zones in Michigan and support HB-4009 . Gun-Free zones do not prevent crime or violence; in fact they encourage just the opposite. I'm asking you to forward this bill on to the House.

    Gun-free zones are killing zones. Criminals intent on harm ignore gun-free zones and see them as a place to commit their atrocities with little chance of being harmed by law-abiding citizens. Why, because law-abiding gun owners follow the law? Studies have shown that lawful gun-owners are among the most law-abiding segment of society, committing fewer crimes than even law enforcement officers.

    In this country the most heinous and largest mass killings occur in gun free zones i.e., schools, churches, Military Bases and Malls to name a few. What you don’t see are mass murders in gun stores, police stations and gun ranges or other places people are allowed to bear arms. What differentiates these places is that in one law –abiding citizens are denied the inalienable right to bear arms. Criminals are not going to plan an attack of mass murder in a place where people have a reasonable chance of defending themselves.

    The murderous and devastating experiment of gun-free zones has run its course. They do not work. Decades of mass murders have proved this time and time again. The time has come to once again give law-abiding citizens the means necessary to take on the responsibility of defending themselves and their loved ones against evil in all public places. Please remove Gun-free zones in Michigan. It's the right thing to do.

    Sincerely,
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Signed

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    ...

    Signed it as well as another 2A supportive fellow employee!

    I also emailed my rep with your mock up letter Ven. Thanks for that!

  7. #7
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Signed and emailed to my Gunclub board.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Signed and emailed the reps.

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    Signed it (twice on accident, clicked refresh trying to see if the number of petitioners increased and it resubmitted apparently).

    Anyway, I posted a link on my facebook wall and encourage you all to do the same.

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Signed and emailed everyone on that email list. Great job Ven!
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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  11. #11
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    1,320 signatures so far we need 100,000 more.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  12. #12
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    1,320 signatures so far we need 100,000 more.
    I would say 250,000 more would be optimal. Seeing as how their are over 250,000 CPL holders in Michigan, and many people whom support those people.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    I would say 250,000 more would be optimal. Seeing as how their are over 250,000 CPL holders in Michigan, and many people whom support those people.
    As of January 3, 2011, there are 190,809 cpl holders in Michigan. Just a note, you must subtract all of the people denied, expired CPLs, revoked CPLs, from the number of CPLs approved.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    As of January 3, 2011, there are 190,809 cpl holders in Michigan. Just a note, you must subtract all of the people denied, expired CPLs, revoked CPLs, from the number of CPLs approved.
    Do you have a link and/or calc for this? I ask since I recently did some calcs against the MI Population to come up with a number for reference purposes (1 in 28 are MI CPL Holders).

    Is MCRGO wrong on their front page with the number of MI CPL Holders?

    http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/

  15. #15
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Do you have a link and/or calc for this? I ask since I recently did some calcs against the MI Population to come up with a number for reference purposes (1 in 28 are MI CPL Holders).

    Is MCRGO wrong on their front page with the number of MI CPL Holders?

    http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/
    I just checked the latest CCW (sic) reports put out by the state police. One needs to look at the grand total at the end of the report for cpls issued and subtract all of the columns that follow ie revoked, denied, expired, etc. I don't know where the MCGRO gets their numbers but many posters have almost always given the numbers as higher. I just went back to the data and realized that the number denied would NOT need to be subtracted, so the true number would be 196,644... still much less than the number you gave.
    Source:
    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...7621--,00.html
    Last edited by DrTodd; 01-24-2011 at 05:46 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I just checked the latest CCW (sic) reports put out by the state police. One needs to look at the grand total at the end of the report for cpls issued and subtract all of the columns that follow ie revoked, denied, expired, etc. I don't know where the MCGRO gets their numbers but many posters have almost always given the numbers as higher. I just went back to the data and realized that the number denied would NOT need to he subtracted, so the true number would be 196,644... still much less than the number you gave.
    Source:
    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...7621--,00.html

    Could they be using this report:

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...d_273955_7.pdf

  17. #17
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    As of January 3, 2011, there are 190,809 cpl holders in Michigan. Just a note, you must subtract all of the people denied, expired CPLs, revoked CPLs, from the number of CPLs approved.
    I believe you can take the Approved Number as it stands.

    To come up with it another way, you would take last row of the following report for the calcs.

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...t_273948_7.pdf

    TOTALS COLUMN (as in the total number of CPL Applications)
    MINUS
    DENIED, EXPIRED, PENDING, REVOKED, SUSPENDED, WITHDRAWN
    SHOULD EQUAL
    APPROVED COLUMN

  18. #18
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Unlikely, as a revoked permit would have to be taken from the approved permit, as would a denied renewal... that permit is no longer valid. Some time ago, maybe 4 years now, I posed the question to our county clerk. Her response seemed to match what I am thinking, as I recall. A person gets a permit in 2005 and renews in 2010, that would be 2 in the total. If a person gets one approved in 2005, is suspended in 2006, and gets it back (renewed), then gets it renewed due to the fact it expired in 2010, that would be 5 ( 1 approval, one suspended, one expired and 2 renewals) in the total. The point of the CCW reports is to show the amount of work the county gun boards do, not to be used to determine the number of active permits. So, although both of us have come to a different conclusion, I guess the real answer would only be attainable if the MSP would explain how the numbers are attained. I also believe that I read somewhere that some boards have, over the last few years, not informed the MSP of renewals, approved, or suspensions due to their anger at not being able to cover their cost of issuance with their portion of the fee. If that is true, then the true number could be higher or lower and no one would really know.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 01-24-2011 at 06:52 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  19. #19
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    I believe you can take the Approved Number as it stands.

    To come up with it another way, you would take last row of the following report for the calcs.

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...t_273948_7.pdf

    TOTALS COLUMN (as in the total number of CPL Applications)
    MINUS
    DENIED, EXPIRED, PENDING, REVOKED, SUSPENDED, WITHDRAWN
    SHOULD EQUAL
    APPROVED COLUMN
    Of course, as the total is only a marker of how busy the board is, not how many holders there are
    Last edited by DrTodd; 01-24-2011 at 07:05 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    All data from http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...t_273948_7.pdf


    Now that I am on a computer, here is how I think the numbers really play out: (Hey, I'm admitting error

    APPROVED 255,874 -(minus)
    EXPIRED 47,000 -(minus)
    REVOKED 1,593 -(minus)
    SUSPENDED 4,375

    currently active licensees: 202,906 licensees

    However, the assumption here is that all suspended still are... this can't be true, but we don't know. So this number would be worse case, with the suspended being adjustable. So, the range would be between 202,906 (all still suspended) and 207,281 (no current suspensions). Still a far cry from 250,000+, but a little better than my 196,644)
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  21. #21
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    So, assuming a population of 10 million ( I don't know what the last census is but think I'm close), 202,906/10,000,000= 0.0202906 or 2.02% or roughly 1 in 50
    or, best case,
    207,281/10,000,000 = 0.0207281 or 2.07%, or still ROUGHLY 1 in 50.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 01-24-2011 at 07:26 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    So, assuming a population of 10 million ( I don't know what the last census is but think I'm close), 202,906/10,000,000= 0.0202906 or 2.02% or roughly 1 in 50
    or, best case,
    207,281/10,000,000 = 0.0207281 or 2.07%, or still ROUGHLY 1 in 50.
    I think it's a fairer number to use those ELIGIBLE to have a CPL in your calculations. So only 21 and up.
    Last edited by scot623; 01-24-2011 at 07:40 PM.

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    I think it's a fairer number to use those ELIGIBLE to have a CPL. So only 21 and up.
    Good call... do you happen to know what that number is? Although it would not affect the raw number, it would affect the ratios.
    I was just thinking, too, that a person could be denied, then fight it and end up getting one approved. That would have to be thrown in the mix too... probably not huge but enough to affect the raw numbers and the ratios.
    What would he really helpful is if we could just get a count from LEIN... that would probably be best BUT there is the case not too long ago of that man who had is renewed but LEIN showed that it was expired.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  24. #24
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Good call... do you happen to know what that number is? Although it would not affect the raw number, it would affect the ratios.
    I was just thinking, too, that a person could be denied, then fight it and end up getting one approved. That would have to be thrown in the mix too... probably not huge but enough to affect the raw numbers and the ratios.
    What would he really helpful is if we could just get a count from LEIN... that would probably be best BUT there is the case not too long ago of that man who had is renewed but LEIN showed that it was expired.
    21 is not easily known, but you can use 18 which is. Subtract the 18 and under for a better but still rough estimate.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    21 is not easily known, but you can use 18 which is. Subtract the 18 and under for a better but still rough estimate.
    Care to share?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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