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Thread: SB 1395 Handgun; Class 1 misdeameanor for carrying while under the influence of alcoh

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    SB 1395 Handgun; Class 1 misdeameanor for carrying while under the influence of alcoh

    At first glance this appeared to be an attempt to remove the very hard-fought concealed carry in a restaurant from last year's session. A closer read reveals that it does not, however, it does for the first time (as far as I am aware) make it a crime to drink any alcohol in a restaurant while carrying openly.

    There is no mention of this one on the VCDL Tracking page yet.

    SB 1395 Handgun; Class 1 misdeameanor for carrying while under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

    Firearms; alcohol; penalties. Provides that it is a Class 1 misdemeanor for a person who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs to carry a loaded firearm in a public place and that a person found guilty is ineligible to apply for a concealed handgun permit for a period of five years. The bill also makes it a Class 2 misdemeanor for a person to carry a loaded firearm onto the premises of any restaurant or club licensed to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption and consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises.

    Here is the tricky section that gave me a start. You have to read all the way to the end:

    B. A person who carries a loaded firearm onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 and consumes an alcoholic beverage while on the premises is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

    And as always...

    C. The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, or military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties. The exemptions set forth in 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section.

    TFred

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    You should not be drinking at all while carrying a gun and while driving a car!

    "C. The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, or military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties. "

    So when a LEO is on duty it is ok to drink?????
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 01-19-2011 at 07:09 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    You should not be drinking at all while carrying a gun and while driving a car!
    While I agree with this ... (that you should not get tanked while OCing) I think this is total CRAP. It should be left to the individual to decide.

    I can't have a glass of wine with my girlfriend over dinner while OC'ing?

    More Laws where there is not an issue, are not a part of the resolution, but part of the problem.
    Last edited by Walt_Kowalski; 01-19-2011 at 07:11 PM.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt_Kowalski View Post
    While I agree with this ... (that you should not get tanked while OCing) I think this is total CRAP. It should be left to the individual to decide.

    I can't have a glass of wine with my girlfriend over dinner while OC'ing?

    More Laws where there is not an issue, are not a part of the resolution, but part of the problem.
    You will be driving home.... even without the gun.

    No drinking and driving...... bad idea.
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 01-19-2011 at 07:13 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Do not trust the patron

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt_Kowalski View Post
    While I agree with this ... (that you should not get tanked while OCing) I think this is total CRAP. It should be left to the individual to decide.

    I can't have a glass of wine with my girlfriend over dinner while OC'ing?

    More Laws where there is not an issue, are not a part of the resolution, but part of the problem.
    Look who the patron is: A. Donald McEachin, a notorious Hoplophobe.


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    my alcohol intake has dwindled to 1 drink every few months or so for this very reason. I dont drink when i am carrying, and i am very rarely NOT carrying. The rapid decisions on my part could save my life, or someone else's life. I need a clear mind to do this.

    The limit of judgment as alcohol intake approaches too much is 0.

    I support this.

  7. #7
    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt_Kowalski View Post
    While I agree with this ... (that you should not get tanked while OCing) I think this is total CRAP. It should be left to the individual to decide.

    I can't have a glass of wine with my girlfriend over dinner while OC'ing?

    More Laws where there is not an issue, are not a part of the resolution, but part of the problem.
    +1

    What ever happened to Phillip's challenge to the Legislature to pick one, either everyone can drink while carrying or no one can drink while carrying. I agree with Walt_K that it is a non-problem and creating laws for non-problems is a deriliction of duty by the legislators!

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    They got sneaky on this one...

    First of all, I am 100% against driving or carrying firearms while under the influence of any mind-altering substance.

    In the case of this bill, the folks who wrote the summary were quite sneaky... the official summary is:

    SB 1395 Handgun; Class 1 misdeameanor for carrying while under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

    Who in their right mind wouldn't support that?

    Only when you read all the way to the end of the second paragraph do you find that they have included provisions any drink at all.

    Now maybe it should, or maybe it shouldn't be a crime to drink one sip of alcohol while carrying a firearm. But hiding it in the bottom of a bill that is deceptively labeled is not the way to write laws.

    TFred

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Somewhat similar to HB2343

    I just noticed that this law is somewhat similar to HB 2343:

    HB 2343 Handgun; Class 1 misdeameanor for carrying while under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

    But HB 2343 does not address consumption.

    The VCDL Tracking page does show "strongly oppose" HB 2343 on the grounds of special rules for LEOs, etc.

    TFred

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    First of all, I am 100% against driving or carrying firearms while under the influence of any mind-altering substance.

    In the case of this bill, the folks who wrote the summary were quite sneaky... the official summary is:

    SB 1395 Handgun; Class 1 misdeameanor for carrying while under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

    Who in their right mind wouldn't support that?

    Only when you read all the way to the end of the second paragraph do you find that they have included provisions any drink at all.

    Now maybe it should, or maybe it shouldn't be a crime to drink one sip of alcohol while carrying a firearm. But hiding it in the bottom of a bill that is deceptively labeled is not the way to write laws.

    TFred
    I agree one sip just for tasting from someone elses drink is fine, BUT if you drink more than two or three sips thats too much.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    For those that choose not to have alcohol while carrying, that is a good choice.

    For those that choose to drink responsibly (a glass of beer/wine with dinner) that is a legal choice (now) but it is still VA law that you can't carry while "impaired".

    So technically the "impaired" part is subjective to the LEO on the scene and you run the risk of being arrested no matter how much you drink. (fairly or unfairly)

    I rarely drink but we do not need MORE laws! With over 20,000 gun laws on the books nationwide I have taken pride to see some struck down! Don't make a law that restricts 100,000 responsible law abiding citizens for a non-problem that may catch 10 people that would have been caught anyway in the old law!

    Think before you support ANY legislation.

  12. #12
    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    For those that choose not to have alcohol while carrying, that is a good choice.

    For those that choose to drink responsibly (a glass of beer/wine with dinner) that is a legal choice (now) but it is still VA law that you can't carry while "impaired".

    So technically the "impaired" part is subjective to the LEO on the scene and you run the risk of being arrested no matter how much you drink. (fairly or unfairly)

    I rarely drink but we do not need MORE laws! With over 20,000 gun laws on the books nationwide I have taken pride to see some struck down! Don't make a law that restricts 100,000 responsible law abiding citizens for a non-problem that may catch 10 people that would have been caught anyway in the old law!

    Think before you support ANY legislation.
    +1 we do not need any more gun laws, just responsible people.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member coondog22554's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    For those that choose not to have alcohol while carrying, that is a good choice.

    For those that choose to drink responsibly (a glass of beer/wine with dinner) that is a legal choice (now) but it is still VA law that you can't carry while "impaired".

    So technically the "impaired" part is subjective to the LEO on the scene and you run the risk of being arrested no matter how much you drink. (fairly or unfairly)

    I rarely drink but we do not need MORE laws! With over 20,000 gun laws on the books nationwide I have taken pride to see some struck down! Don't make a law that restricts 100,000 responsible law abiding citizens for a non-problem that may catch 10 people that would have been caught anyway in the old law!

    Think before you support ANY legislation.
    + 1

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    Quote Originally Posted by coondog22554 View Post
    + 1
    I agree with that as well. I did not read the exception of the LEO's and such. What are they thinking?!

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJEEPER View Post
    I agree with that as well. I did not read the exception of the LEO's and such. What are they thinking?!
    LEOs are special people who never make bad choices and are 'trained' to be more responsible and law abiding then any citizen.

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    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    +1 we do not need any more gun laws, just responsible people.
    +10000000000
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
    -- George Washington

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    I agree one sip just for tasting from someone elses drink is fine, BUT if you drink more than two or three sips thats too much.
    Maybe for you, maybe not for me, maybe not for the guy down the street.

    Non-issue, needs to die.
    Last edited by t33j; 01-20-2011 at 12:13 AM.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member DontTreadOnMeVa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJEEPER View Post
    my alcohol intake has dwindled to 1 drink every few months or so for this very reason. I dont drink when i am carrying, and i am very rarely NOT carrying. The rapid decisions on my part could save my life, or someone else's life. I need a clear mind to do this.

    The limit of judgment as alcohol intake approaches too much is 0.

    I support this.
    I dont make a habit of drinking and carrying, just as I dont make a habit of drinking and driving....but I do think one can do both responsibly.

    I would compare responsibly drinking and carrying to something you did at lobby day. Many would look at carrying an AR15 pistol to lobby day as a bad idea, but would agree your acted both legally and within your rights.

    Freedom is not limited by where a man decide to draw a line for himself on what he would do, but rather when he decide to draw the line for others what they can do.

    I would never tell you not to carry an AR to lobby day....and I would never tell a good friend of mine he should not have a beer wile OCing at dinner.

    This may seem odd to some, I feel a great deal of respect and pride on a certain level for my fellow citizen when he exercise his rights in a way I don't, wouldn't or even this might not be the best PR.

    I was in fact happy to see you carry your AR and I am in fact happy to see my friend raise a glass when out....as long as it is done responsibly. Why? Because you and my friend showing the strength of our rights. I dont have to always agree it was the best PR move, or feel the need to exercise my rights the same way, to feel proud of those that perhaps go further than me.

    Hell, after a real parking lot bill passes I will buy my friend Dos Equis and I heck I might decide to have one with him....because if the right is still intact, I can alway change my mind. *WINK*

    I do not support that bill at all!

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    You should not be drinking at all while...driving a car!
    This is your opinion, but it is not the law, nor is it the consensus among Virginians, nor is it represented in our laws.

    Many responsible Virginians choose to enjoy a glass of wine or beer with dinner or at a show, and drive home. They do so safely and legally.

    Furthermore, there are already laws against driving and carrying a firearm while intoxicated, neither of which even require a specific BAC reading when applied to cases of obviously impaired behavior.

    I appreciate and respect your opinions and decisions, but you might have some respect for others'. As it stands, folks who support this bill, support restrictions on firearms greater than restrictions on driving! I do not feel this is consistent with the aims of this forum.

    As it happens, I no longer drink for medical/health reasons, but previously I had been known to enjoy a single alcoholic beverage, while armed or before driving, and to do so responsibly, in compliance with the law, and to the point of no impairment.

    I would afford folks like Walt the freedom to enjoy his glass of wine, and his ability, his right, to defend himself.

    Incidentally, this would seem to outlaw wine tasting, even for those who spit out what they taste, as spit-out wine is still arguably "consumed" (as in, "not available for further use"), although it is not "ingested". And there is no reason whatsoever why those who do not even ingest alcohol should be subject to prohibition, even though they may consume it! Now, it may be argued this is not the spirit of the law etc. ad nauseam, but I would simply point out that the current law, which prohibits armed intoxication, already accounts for this particular, and any problem cases to boot.

    For what reason do Virginians need this law? So the teetotalers who cannot fathom a single alcoholic beverage being consumed responsibly can push their own judgement on other, responsible adults? That is the inevitable result. Why should we move in this direction in a time when gun rights are becoming expanded in all directions?
    Last edited by marshaul; 01-20-2011 at 03:20 AM.

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    I would like to know how many open carriers have been arrested after causing a problem while drinking in a restaurant.

    I have never heard of such an enormous public-safety problem caused by open carry drinkers?

    This is not a law to solve a problem, this is a hit on pretty much any open carrier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    This is not a law to solve a problem, this is a hit on pretty much any open carrier.
    Ditto. If anyone at the table has an alcoholic beverage (or even if a "cooperative" server delivers one to the table and it sits untouched), an unethical LEO could make an arrest for drinking while carrying.

    Important note: while there is an "implied consent" to alcohol testing while driving, there is no such obligation while dining in public. An officer can make a case based on his observations, but you're under no obligation to assist him. Being offended, protesting, insisting on your rights, etc., will all look like someone behaving out of the norm (thus "impaired").

    Again: Don't talk to the police!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t33j View Post
    Maybe for you, maybe not for me, maybe not for the guy down the street.

    Non-issue, needs to die.
    Out of all the responses that address this so eloquently, This one puts it all in a nutshell.

    Drinking is a personal issue, drunks are something else.
    We can argue about drinking and carrying all day....but the Government needs to stay out of responsible drinking and let us decide that among ourselves.

    And yes, it's a non issue.
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-20-2011 at 09:12 AM.

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    I think most of us agree that carrying while drunk is a no-no, but what leads some to the conclusion that we should ban carrying after drinking any alcohol when there are so many other substances that can have adverse affects on cognitive abilities? Yes a drink or two will impair you somewhat, but so do many of the other things we do every day

    What about the person who carries after suffering a debilitating back injury that requires her to take opiate based painkillers? Should she not be able to carry because those painkillers slow her down? What about folks who take allergy or cold medications? Many of those medications cause drowsiness. What about carrying while tired? Some studies have found that driving while tired is similar to driving after having a few drinks. In fact 56,000 car crashes are attributed to drowsiness each year (cite:http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4794514). If it is so dangerous for driving, isn't it just as bad for carrying?

    Are any of those things any better or worse than having a beer while carrying?

    Besides all that, if a drunken fool is open carrying, he can be cited for any number of offenses starting with public intoxication depending on what he/she is doing. Why add more laws? At the end of the day a misdemeanor does not revoke your right to carry openly anyways.
    Last edited by mpd8488; 01-20-2011 at 11:32 AM.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpd8488 View Post
    I think most of us agree that carrying while drunk is a no-no
    Drunk? Perhaps. But upon whose opinion? Yours? Mine?

    It is no responsibility of ours to see a right legislated away for something we may consider taboo or improper.

    Shall not be infringed. Period. There are no asterisks in the Bill of Rights as far as I am aware.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
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    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member Red Dawg's Avatar
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    But under VA law Class I Misde is up to 12 months and/or 2500 dollar fine. That kind of sucks. And I don't like the fact that is a discretionary law/statute. Who determines how far you can go?
    Bad law...
    The Second Amendment is in place
    in case the politicians ignore the others

    A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone

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