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Thread: Question for you 1911 carriers

  1. #1
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    Question for you 1911 carriers

    I have noticed that most people carrying a 1911 carry in condition 1, cocked and locked. Is carrying in condition 2 that much different? Can't one cock the hammer as quickly as one can remove the safety? Isn't condition 2 a bit safer then condition 1?

  2. #2
    Regular Member skorittnig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max View Post
    I have noticed that most people carrying a 1911 carry in condition 1, cocked and locked. Is carrying in condition 2 that much different? Can't one cock the hammer as quickly as one can remove the safety? Isn't condition 2 a bit safer then condition 1?
    As long as the bad guy understands that he must "count to 5" before beginning his assault on you and your family- leaving you ample time to draw, grasp the gun firmly, and cock your hammer.

    I'm kidding--I have seen this question arise on other forums, the most common answer is carry however you are comfortable, and understand its benefits/disadvantages. Personally, I believe the 1911 has enough safeties (grip safety, thumb safety, half-cock) to carry cocked and locked.. Read this article, and decide for yourself.

    http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm
    skorittnig

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared."
    Niccolo Machiavelli

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max View Post
    I have noticed that most people carrying a 1911 carry in condition 1, cocked and locked. Is carrying in condition 2 that much different? Can't one cock the hammer as quickly as one can remove the safety? Isn't condition 2 a bit safer then condition 1?
    Cond 1 is the correct way to carry a 1911 - Cocked w/ safety on. Condition 2 , means you must cock the weapon, and when you only a have a second or 2 to react condition 2 is not the way to go.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock34 View Post
    Cond 1 is the correct way to carry a 1911 - Cocked w/ safety on. Condition 2 , means you must cock the weapon, and when you only a have a second or 2 to react condition 2 is not the way to go.




    Damn you G34, beat me to the punch you did!! But yea OP, 1911's were designed for condition 1 carry.

    -Landose-
    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  5. #5
    Regular Member swfaninwi's Avatar
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    Condition 1 all the way

    A 1911 is meant to be carried with an unloaded chamber (condition 3) or cocked and locked (condition 1). Condition 2 is dangerous. If you can’t carry in either state, don’t carry it. Buy a Glock, etc.

    “Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions. When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off. There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design. In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand. A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb. In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.”

    http://www.m1911.org/technic10.htm

  6. #6
    Regular Member Chap's Avatar
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    Danger with carrying condition two in my opinion

    Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

    There is No De-cocking lever on a 1911, so after you rack a round you would need to lower the hammer with your thumb while pulling the trigger. (NOT advisable)

    I was trained and carried the 1911 for the Military back in the 80's. We carried in condition three.

    Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

    Condition three is how I currently conceal carry my personal weapon, a Kimber 1911.

    Two draw backs I can think of with Condition 3 being able to reach Condition 0:

    1) After you break leather, it (normally) takes two hands to rack a round. This puts the gun in
    Condition 0 - Cocked, Un-locked and Ready to rock. (Condition 1 just thumb off safety)

    2) It also makes noise which will draw attention your direction. (Condition 1 no noise until you pull trigger)

    All things I'm willing to accept, That being said I have NO problem with Condition one carry either since I trust the safeties built into the 1911. It has a very long history of no unintentional discharges.

    I believe Condition 1 or 3 should be the only real choices you should consider.

    Chap

    Welcome to the wonderful world of 1911's.
    Last edited by Chap; 01-20-2011 at 06:20 AM.
    Kimber Ultra Carry II .45 ACP, 3" barrel 1911 with a Mitch Rosen holster

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  7. #7
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    Some very good answers here. Whatever your choice, you must be comfortable with your decision.

    Condition 2 is unsafe

    Condition 3 takes more time, more movement, makes noise and assumes you have both hands free to use.

    My choice is condition 1, cocked and locked, and I have no problems with it. I train that way also. I trust my life on it.

  8. #8
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Question How was it designed to work?

    John Moses Browning designed the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked. Nuff said?
    Dave
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  9. #9
    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chap View Post
    Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

    There is No De-cocking lever on a 1911, so after you rack a round you would need to lower the hammer with your thumb while pulling the trigger. (NOT advisable)

    I was trained and carried the 1911 for the Military back in the 80's. We carried in condition three.

    Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

    Condition three is how I currently conceal carry my personal weapon, a Kimber 1911.

    Two draw backs I can think of with Condition 3:

    1) After you break leather, it (normally) takes two hands to rack a round. This puts the gun in
    Condition 0 - cocked locked and ready to rock. (Condition 1 just thumb off safety)

    2) It also makes noise which will draw attention your direction. (Condition 1 no noise until you pull trigger)

    All things I'm willing to accept, That being said I have NO problem with Condition one carry either since I trust the safeties built into the 1911. It has a very long history of no unintentional discharges.

    I believe Condition 1 or 3 should be the only real choices you should consider.

    Chap

    Welcome to the wonderful world of 1911's.
    I carry in Condition One. Always have. I have no problem with Condition Three or Israeli carry either but for me it is slower and requires dexterity that might not be there for me in a stress fire situation.

    Cocked, locked, ready to rock. That works for me.

    As for lowering the hammer on a live round in a 1911, I don't recommend it. I choose to drop the mag and rack the slide, clearing the chamber. No reason to lower the hammer on a live round. If the safety is off and rounds are still in the gun, I would just snick the safety back on and holster.

    'Hammer down on a live round' carry in a 1911 is an accident waiting to happen. Drop the gun, just the inertia of the firing pin may set off the round. Further, if you attempt to cock the gun and your thumb slips, bang. JMHO

    Hardballer out!

  10. #10
    Regular Member 1FASTC4's Avatar
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    Condition 1 for my kimber 1911. I wouldn't carry condition 2... too much chance of a ND. Condition 3 doesnt seem like a good choice because you are adding steps to the process of actually getting a round off. Experts say that fine motor skills are greatly effected under extreme duress. I prefer my firing motion/action to be as simplistic as possible. YMMV
    Last edited by 1FASTC4; 01-20-2011 at 02:43 AM.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    John Moses Browning designed the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked. Nuff said?
    This is only partially true. Originally, condition 1 carry was not intended, as evidenced by the lack of thumb safety on the 1910 prototype (many people erroneously claim it was the grip safety initially lacking). Furthermore, the existence of grip serrations on the hammer spur -- and the length of that spur, especially on the M1911 (pre-A1) -- suggests that condition 2 carry was intended. It wasn't until the cavalry reasonably pointed out that they needed a one-handed way to safely holster the weapon while riding that the thumb safety was added. However, even for the cavalry, condition 1 carry was a matter of expediency, but was apparently not the primary, day-to-day mode of carry.

    I have posted extensively on this issue in the past:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1142629

    It's accurate to say that the pistol was designed to allow condition 1 carry, but then it was also designed to allow condition 2 and 3. And furthermore, whichever of these was, by design, intended to be the primary mode, it was almost certainly not condition 1.

    With all that said, I carry condition 1, and tend to share the reasoning as to why condition 2 is the least safe.
    Last edited by marshaul; 01-20-2011 at 03:17 AM.

  12. #12
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    Thanks all

    Thanks everybody for educating me. I did not understand the mechanics of the 1911 as I have never handled one but after the info you all gave me I can see how condition two is not a good idea. Thanks again all. It seems everyone and their brother are making entry level 1911s now. It is nice to have such a wide selection.

  13. #13
    McX
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    i need a 1911, i follow around open carriers at the meets, but they're wise to me, and those damn retention holsters keep me from ever realy getting my hands on one. i feel so discriminated against. i am not a member of club .45!

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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    i need a 1911, i follow around open carriers at the meets, but they're wise to me, and those damn retention holsters keep me from ever realy getting my hands on one. i feel so discriminated against. i am not a member of club .45!
    Our holsters will fit the "big brother". Same firearm, just not the same size hole. Lol.

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    Regular Member Krusty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    i need a 1911, i follow around open carriers at the meets, but they're wise to me, and those damn retention holsters keep me from ever realy getting my hands on one. i feel so discriminated against. i am not a member of club .45!
    GOOD NEWS MCX! Club .45 has now extended its membership to "other than 1911" .45 autos! It's not too late, sign up today!! Even a nice .45 revolver will get you into the club! haha
    IF YOU WANT TO BURN OUR AMERICAN FLAG, PLEASE WRAP YOURSELF UP IN IT FIRST...

  16. #16
    Regular Member Chap's Avatar
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    McX,

    You rock....... You made my morning thanks!!!!

    Chap
    Kimber Ultra Carry II .45 ACP, 3" barrel 1911 with a Mitch Rosen holster

    New additions to the family -
    XDm .45 ACP 02FEB11,
    Ruger LCP .380 05FEB11

  17. #17
    McX
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    thanks guys. i started to feel better, and quit crying, but then someone sent me this, and now i'm sniveling all over again:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zJlsc8GU50

  18. #18
    Regular Member comp45acp's Avatar
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    I carry Condition 1 at all times. I am aware that the military for most of their history with the 1911 had people carry it in Condition 3. Then again, carrying in the military is a little different situation than carrying on the street. My father carried a 1911 as a crew member on a B-24 and always carried Condition 1.

    As to Condition 2, the "half cock safety" really isn't a safety in that sense of the word. It is meant to catch the hammer in the event that the sear fails to engage the full cock notch on the hammer.

    IMHO, when correctly operated, the 1911 is the safest handgun out there.
    Jim Burgess
    NRA Lifetime

  19. #19
    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    My $0.02. It's much more natural to push down the safety with your thumb, as you draw the 1911, than it is to cock the hammer. I find it much faster and easier.

  20. #20
    Regular Member swfaninwi's Avatar
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    Carrying in condition 2 is the same as carrying a level action rifle with the hammer all the way forward on a loaded chamber. As was stated, there is a possibly that the hammer may get hit from behind or the gun dropped muzzle down and inertia will cause the firing pin to go forward into the primer.

    If a cocked 1911 looks dangerous just remember that most long guns are cocked but you don’t see the hammer (out of sight, out of mind I guess). The 1911 has the additional grip safety which blocks the sear unless the grip is firmly grasped. Some models like the Colt series 80 have a firing pin block (a small pin that fits in a grove in the firing pin) that can only be moved when the trigger is pressed. Kimber and some S&W also have a similar safety but it is controlled by the grip safety (called a Schwartz safety). While an added level of protection, the firing pin block is not a substitute for poor muzzle and trigger discipline. Most long guns do not have a firing pin block, but a sear safety controlled by the button safety. Companies like Springfield Armory and certain S&W models use a titanium (read: supper lightweight) firing pin that will not develop the inertia to fire the shell.

    Decent animations
    http://www.m1911.org/1911desc.htm

  21. #21
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    I carry in condition 1 for all the reasons stated above and also because my thumb break will not wrap around the hammer. The thumb break could also be considered a safety (a physical barrier between hammer and pin) in an impossible situation where all safeties fail and the weapon decides to shoot itself... pun intended.

  22. #22
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Post The 1911 as we know it is designed for condition 1 or condition 3, not condition 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    ....It's accurate to say that the pistol was designed to allow condition 1 carry, but then it was also designed to allow condition 2 and 3. And furthermore, whichever of these was, by design, intended to be the primary mode, it was almost certainly not condition 1.

    With all that said, I carry condition 1, and tend to share the reasoning as to why condition 2 is the least safe.
    Here is a short history of the 1911 for those who are interested. Take what you will from it. Red emphasis mine. McX be sure to have some tissues near by; and I don't mean for your eyes.... It is excerpted from:

    Simply the greatest fighting handgun ever.
    By Massad Ayoob

    History of the 1911
    The history of the 1911 pistol goes back to well before that eponymous year, as surely as it continues today.
    Let's look at some landmarks in its development:
    1896: Seeing the future, Colt's Patent Firearms signs John Browning to a contract to do developmental work on automatic pistols for them. "Semi-automatic" will not become the common parlance for such automatically-loading designs until later.
    1899: The first Browning-designed autoloaders take form in steel, chambered for a proprietary .38 caliber round.
    1902: Colt .38 automatics, in both sporting and military trim, appear on the market. Despite smooth actions and excellent workmanship, they are rickety things that resemble T-squares with triggers.
    1903: Initial concept work begins on the cartridge that will be known as the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol. This same year, Colt introduces their famous Pocket Model .32 auto.
    1904: The .45 Automatic Colt Pistol cartridge is born.
    1905: The U.S. Army has become insistent on a .45 caliber handgun in the wake of the Philippine Insurrection, and is somewhat open to the newfangled autoloading pistol concept, that despite the annoying fact that all the pistols they had tested in the previous five years (including early Colt .38s) have failed to prove totally adequate. Colt quietly begins production of their first .45 automatic, though the Model Of 1905 will not hit the market until early 1906. Like all its predecessors but the Pocket Model, it retains a nearly 90° grip to barrel angle. It will not please the Army for a number of reasons.
    1907: An Ordnance test determines that no currently produced automatic pistol is satisfactory for U.S. military needs, but that Colt comes closest.
    1908: A grip safety is developed for Colt's .45 pistol, still a work in progress.
    1909: Colt's classic is now beginning to take shape. It is the first Colt to get the push button magazine release, located behind the trigger guard on the left. Its slide lock lever is a rather crude picture of what the 1911's will be. The ugly square front of the earlier guns has given way to a shorter dust cover portion of the frame, and the gracefully narrowed lower front of the slide, seen in the 1903 Pocket .32 (and the identical-in-appearance 1908 Pocket .380), as adopted on this iteration of Colt's .45 auto.
    1910: The shape of John Browning's masterpiece is almost complete, but the 1910 variation lacks a thumb safety. This will be added at the insistence of the Army, which has determined it unsafe to attempt to manually decock a chamber-loaded auto pistol in the heat of battle, one-handed.
    1911: The vision is complete. With long trigger and short grip tang, by today's standards, the 1911 has a safety readily accessible to a right thumb, and a flat-back mainspring housing. In the climax of a long series of military handgun tests, the Colt trounces the only other remaining finalist, the Savage. In March of 1911, the United States government officially adopts Colt's Government Model pistol, Model Of 1911, as the standard sidearm of the Army, Marine Corps, and Navy. It will remain so until the mid-1980s.
    1912: For the first of many, many times in its long history, production of the 1911 pistol is outsourced from Colt. In addition to Colt's own production, the pistol is now being manufactured at the Springfield Armory in Springfield, Mass. This same year, the National Rifle Association offers its members NRA-marked 1911s acquired from the Ordnance Department.
    1914: Norway adopts the 1911 Colt .45 ACP as its standard military sidearm. It is granted the right to produce the guns there, the following year.
    1916: Argentina adopts the 1911 as its standard service pistol, and will soon be licensed to produce them there. Mexico will adopt the 1911 shortly after World War I.
    1917: With America's entry into The European War, demand so far outstrips production that Remington becomes another licensed 1911 manufacturer, and both Colt (on their separate revolver line) and Smith & Wesson mass produce revolvers that will fire the .45 ACP cartridge with half-moon clips.
    1923: A post-war study of small arms effectiveness determines that the 1911 needs a longer, more protective grip tang to prevent hammer bite; an arched magazine housing to cure a tendency to shoot low; more visible sights; and a shorter, more easily reached trigger. These modifications combine to form the Model 1911A1, a designation that does not become official until three years later.
    1929: The Colt .38 Super makes its official debut, in a Government Model format identical to the .45. It fires a 130 grain bullet at 1,300 feet per second. Ostensibly, the reason for the new cartridge was to penetrate the body armor worn by gangsters of the era.
    1931: Colt attempts to market a blowback 1911 in .22 Long Rifle. Called the Ace model, it will prove unreliable.
    1932: The National Match version is introduced. Produced in .45 ACP and .38 Super, this handcrafted beauty will be declared by many purists to be the finest Colt automatic ever manufactured.
    1935: Marsh "Carbine" Williams invents a floating chamber device that allows the 1911 to function more reliably with a .22 Long Rifle cartridge. The Colt Service Model Ace .22 pistol and the Colt .22/45 conversion unit are born.
    1937: William Swartz's firing pin safety is patented. Colt buys the rights and assembles a quantity of .45s and Supers with it, eventually abandoning the concept as too difficult to machine.
    1941: The outbreak of World War II creates a vast demand for 1911A1 pistols. In addition to Colt, they will be manufactured in greater or lesser quantities by such firms as Remington-Rand, Ithaca, and the Singer Sewing Machine Company.
    1950: The first shortened (and the first lightened) Colt 1911, the Commander, is introduced. With aluminum alloy frame instead of steel, shortened dust cover, and barrel stubbed from the conventional 5" to 4.25" with a proportionally shorter slide, it is offered in calibers .45 ACP, .38 Super, and 9mm Luger.
    1957: The National Match concept is resurrected. The new pistol will be offered primarily in .45 ACP but later, briefly, in .38 Special wadcutter, and will be better known as the Colt Gold Cup.
    1970: Colt introduces their Series 70 with collet-type barrel bushing intended to improve accuracy. The collets will prove to be fragile, and this design will soon be abandoned.
    1972: The United States Army officially adopts the General Officers' Pistol, a Colt Commander .45 shortened at muzzle and butt for issue to those with stars on their shoulders. A concept created earlier by military armorers, it has already been offered to the public as a custom "Bobcat" .45 by custom gunsmiths.
    1973: Louis Seecamp offers a double-action conversion to the Government Model pistol. It will later be incorporated into a short-lived, double-action 1911 pistol, the ODI Viking.
    1974: Bob Reese founds a new gun manufacturing firm that after buying the commercial rights to the old government arsenal of Springfield Armory. This firm will be the first to compete seriously with Colt in production of commercial (as opposed to military contract) 1911s, beginning in 1985.
    1983: Colt introduces the Series 80 with the first passive, internal firing pin safety since the short-lived Swartz design. It is activated via trigger pull.
    1985: The first commercially successful stainless 1911 is introduced by Colt in the '80 series. In the same year, Colt introduces the subcompact Officers ACP, effectively wiping out the mini-1911 market among custom gunsmiths.
    1988: ParaOrdnance introduces a wide-body 1911 frame that accepts a double stack magazine, originally designed to hold 13 rounds of .45 ACP. The wide-body, hi-cap platform will soon be copied by several other makers, and Para will begin producing complete 1911 pistols two years later.
    1990: Colt introduces its first double-action 1911, the Double Eagle, a design somewhat derivative of the Seecamp concept. It is not greeted with enthusiasm, and will be discontinued in 1997.
    1991: Colt introduces its first flat-finish "economy" 1911 for the commercial market, the 1991A1.
    1996: Kimber introduces their aptly named Classic, a moderately priced Government Model size pistol with all the usual custom bells and whistles. It will soon become the nation's best selling 1911.
    2000: ParaOrdnance introduces the LDA, the first double-action only 1911.
    2003: Smith & Wesson introduces their long-awaited version, the SW1911. The SW1911 earns an excellent reputation.
    2006: An amazing value at $600 retail, a 1911 from Taurus hits the market.
    2007: Springfield Armory announces the first scaled down version of the 1911.
    And for those of you who don't know what in the hell we are talking about, I offer this partial quote from http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm
    The Conditions of Readiness:
    The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the "Condition" system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. The are:
    Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
    Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
    Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
    Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
    Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.
    You can wipe up now, McX, I'm all done with the 1911 porn....
    Last edited by davegran; 01-21-2011 at 09:21 AM.
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  23. #23
    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    Condition 5 - also known as the Brady Condition - is unloaded, magazine remove, slide removed, slide locked in a safe in your bedroom, frame in a safe in the basement, and ammunition in a bank safety deposit box. This is the preferable method to unarm citizens to ensure the health of burglars and other criminals.

  24. #24
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Condition 1

    Because of my fondness for my Springfield XD-45, I do not always carry my Springfield Compact Model 1911 (.45 ACP), but when I do, I carry it cocked and locked (Condition 1); same as my XD (the version with a thumb safety).
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    Condition 5 - also known as the Brady Condition - is unloaded, magazine remove, slide removed, slide locked in a safe in your bedroom, frame in a safe in the basement, and ammunition in a bank safety deposit box. This is the preferable method to unarm citizens to ensure the health of burglars and other criminals.
    +1
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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