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Question for you 1911 carriers

theJurk

New member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
8
Location
Racine, wi
I carry in condition 1 for all the reasons stated above and also because my thumb break will not wrap around the hammer. The thumb break could also be considered a safety (a physical barrier between hammer and pin) in an impossible situation where all safeties fail and the weapon decides to shoot itself... pun intended.
 

davegran

Regular Member
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,563
Location
Cassville Area -Twelve Miles From Anything, Wiscon
The 1911 as we know it is designed for condition 1 or condition 3, not condition 2.

....It's accurate to say that the pistol was designed to allow condition 1 carry, but then it was also designed to allow condition 2 and 3. And furthermore, whichever of these was, by design, intended to be the primary mode, it was almost certainly not condition 1.

With all that said, I carry condition 1, and tend to share the reasoning as to why condition 2 is the least safe.
Here is a short history of the 1911 for those who are interested. Take what you will from it. Red emphasis mine. McX be sure to have some tissues near by; and I don't mean for your eyes.... It is excerpted from:

Simply the greatest fighting handgun ever.
By Massad Ayoob

History of the 1911
The history of the 1911 pistol goes back to well before that eponymous year, as surely as it continues today.
Let's look at some landmarks in its development:
1896: Seeing the future, Colt's Patent Firearms signs John Browning to a contract to do developmental work on automatic pistols for them. "Semi-automatic" will not become the common parlance for such automatically-loading designs until later.
1899: The first Browning-designed autoloaders take form in steel, chambered for a proprietary .38 caliber round.
1902: Colt .38 automatics, in both sporting and military trim, appear on the market. Despite smooth actions and excellent workmanship, they are rickety things that resemble T-squares with triggers.
1903: Initial concept work begins on the cartridge that will be known as the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol. This same year, Colt introduces their famous Pocket Model .32 auto.
1904: The .45 Automatic Colt Pistol cartridge is born.
1905: The U.S. Army has become insistent on a .45 caliber handgun in the wake of the Philippine Insurrection, and is somewhat open to the newfangled autoloading pistol concept, that despite the annoying fact that all the pistols they had tested in the previous five years (including early Colt .38s) have failed to prove totally adequate. Colt quietly begins production of their first .45 automatic, though the Model Of 1905 will not hit the market until early 1906. Like all its predecessors but the Pocket Model, it retains a nearly 90° grip to barrel angle. It will not please the Army for a number of reasons.
1907: An Ordnance test determines that no currently produced automatic pistol is satisfactory for U.S. military needs, but that Colt comes closest.
1908: A grip safety is developed for Colt's .45 pistol, still a work in progress.
1909: Colt's classic is now beginning to take shape. It is the first Colt to get the push button magazine release, located behind the trigger guard on the left. Its slide lock lever is a rather crude picture of what the 1911's will be. The ugly square front of the earlier guns has given way to a shorter dust cover portion of the frame, and the gracefully narrowed lower front of the slide, seen in the 1903 Pocket .32 (and the identical-in-appearance 1908 Pocket .380), as adopted on this iteration of Colt's .45 auto.
1910: The shape of John Browning's masterpiece is almost complete, but the 1910 variation lacks a thumb safety. This will be added at the insistence of the Army, which has determined it unsafe to attempt to manually decock a chamber-loaded auto pistol in the heat of battle, one-handed.
1911: The vision is complete. With long trigger and short grip tang, by today's standards, the 1911 has a safety readily accessible to a right thumb, and a flat-back mainspring housing. In the climax of a long series of military handgun tests, the Colt trounces the only other remaining finalist, the Savage. In March of 1911, the United States government officially adopts Colt's Government Model pistol, Model Of 1911, as the standard sidearm of the Army, Marine Corps, and Navy. It will remain so until the mid-1980s.
1912: For the first of many, many times in its long history, production of the 1911 pistol is outsourced from Colt. In addition to Colt's own production, the pistol is now being manufactured at the Springfield Armory in Springfield, Mass. This same year, the National Rifle Association offers its members NRA-marked 1911s acquired from the Ordnance Department.
1914: Norway adopts the 1911 Colt .45 ACP as its standard military sidearm. It is granted the right to produce the guns there, the following year.
1916: Argentina adopts the 1911 as its standard service pistol, and will soon be licensed to produce them there. Mexico will adopt the 1911 shortly after World War I.
1917: With America's entry into The European War, demand so far outstrips production that Remington becomes another licensed 1911 manufacturer, and both Colt (on their separate revolver line) and Smith & Wesson mass produce revolvers that will fire the .45 ACP cartridge with half-moon clips.
1923: A post-war study of small arms effectiveness determines that the 1911 needs a longer, more protective grip tang to prevent hammer bite; an arched magazine housing to cure a tendency to shoot low; more visible sights; and a shorter, more easily reached trigger. These modifications combine to form the Model 1911A1, a designation that does not become official until three years later.
1929: The Colt .38 Super makes its official debut, in a Government Model format identical to the .45. It fires a 130 grain bullet at 1,300 feet per second. Ostensibly, the reason for the new cartridge was to penetrate the body armor worn by gangsters of the era.
1931: Colt attempts to market a blowback 1911 in .22 Long Rifle. Called the Ace model, it will prove unreliable.
1932: The National Match version is introduced. Produced in .45 ACP and .38 Super, this handcrafted beauty will be declared by many purists to be the finest Colt automatic ever manufactured.
1935: Marsh "Carbine" Williams invents a floating chamber device that allows the 1911 to function more reliably with a .22 Long Rifle cartridge. The Colt Service Model Ace .22 pistol and the Colt .22/45 conversion unit are born.
1937: William Swartz's firing pin safety is patented. Colt buys the rights and assembles a quantity of .45s and Supers with it, eventually abandoning the concept as too difficult to machine.
1941: The outbreak of World War II creates a vast demand for 1911A1 pistols. In addition to Colt, they will be manufactured in greater or lesser quantities by such firms as Remington-Rand, Ithaca, and the Singer Sewing Machine Company.
1950: The first shortened (and the first lightened) Colt 1911, the Commander, is introduced. With aluminum alloy frame instead of steel, shortened dust cover, and barrel stubbed from the conventional 5" to 4.25" with a proportionally shorter slide, it is offered in calibers .45 ACP, .38 Super, and 9mm Luger.
1957: The National Match concept is resurrected. The new pistol will be offered primarily in .45 ACP but later, briefly, in .38 Special wadcutter, and will be better known as the Colt Gold Cup.
1970: Colt introduces their Series 70 with collet-type barrel bushing intended to improve accuracy. The collets will prove to be fragile, and this design will soon be abandoned.
1972: The United States Army officially adopts the General Officers' Pistol, a Colt Commander .45 shortened at muzzle and butt for issue to those with stars on their shoulders. A concept created earlier by military armorers, it has already been offered to the public as a custom "Bobcat" .45 by custom gunsmiths.
1973: Louis Seecamp offers a double-action conversion to the Government Model pistol. It will later be incorporated into a short-lived, double-action 1911 pistol, the ODI Viking.
1974: Bob Reese founds a new gun manufacturing firm that after buying the commercial rights to the old government arsenal of Springfield Armory. This firm will be the first to compete seriously with Colt in production of commercial (as opposed to military contract) 1911s, beginning in 1985.
1983: Colt introduces the Series 80 with the first passive, internal firing pin safety since the short-lived Swartz design. It is activated via trigger pull.
1985: The first commercially successful stainless 1911 is introduced by Colt in the '80 series. In the same year, Colt introduces the subcompact Officers ACP, effectively wiping out the mini-1911 market among custom gunsmiths.
1988: ParaOrdnance introduces a wide-body 1911 frame that accepts a double stack magazine, originally designed to hold 13 rounds of .45 ACP. The wide-body, hi-cap platform will soon be copied by several other makers, and Para will begin producing complete 1911 pistols two years later.
1990: Colt introduces its first double-action 1911, the Double Eagle, a design somewhat derivative of the Seecamp concept. It is not greeted with enthusiasm, and will be discontinued in 1997.
1991: Colt introduces its first flat-finish "economy" 1911 for the commercial market, the 1991A1.
1996: Kimber introduces their aptly named Classic, a moderately priced Government Model size pistol with all the usual custom bells and whistles. It will soon become the nation's best selling 1911.
2000: ParaOrdnance introduces the LDA, the first double-action only 1911.
2003: Smith & Wesson introduces their long-awaited version, the SW1911. The SW1911 earns an excellent reputation.
2006: An amazing value at $600 retail, a 1911 from Taurus hits the market.
2007: Springfield Armory announces the first scaled down version of the 1911.
And for those of you who don't know what in the hell we are talking about, I offer this partial quote from http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm
The Conditions of Readiness:
The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the "Condition" system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. The are:
Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.
You can wipe up now, McX, I'm all done with the 1911 porn.... :lol:
 
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TyGuy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
775
Location
, ,
Condition 5 - also known as the Brady Condition - is unloaded, magazine remove, slide removed, slide locked in a safe in your bedroom, frame in a safe in the basement, and ammunition in a bank safety deposit box. This is the preferable method to unarm citizens to ensure the health of burglars and other criminals.
 

jpm84092

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
1,066
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
Condition 1

Because of my fondness for my Springfield XD-45, I do not always carry my Springfield Compact Model 1911 (.45 ACP), but when I do, I carry it cocked and locked (Condition 1); same as my XD (the version with a thumb safety).
 

jpm84092

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
1,066
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
Condition 5 - also known as the Brady Condition - is unloaded, magazine remove, slide removed, slide locked in a safe in your bedroom, frame in a safe in the basement, and ammunition in a bank safety deposit box. This is the preferable method to unarm citizens to ensure the health of burglars and other criminals.

+1
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Here is a short history of the 1911 for those who are interested. Take what you will from it. Red emphasis mine. McX be sure to have some tissues near by; and I don't mean for your eyes.... It is excerpted from:

Good post. Although, I maintain that the lack of thumb safety on the 1910 prototype places condition 1 carry as something of an afterthought with regard to the overall design of the pistol itself. It certainly was, finally, designed to allow condition 1, but condition 1 was not originally the anticipated mode of carry when the pistol was first designed.

I say this only because many people argue that "the pistol was designed for condition 1", in a fashion which implies that condition 2 was not intended. While we may agree that condition 2 is unsafe, the design of the pistol clearly places condition 2 in a position of primacy, with regard to original design intent, over condition 1.

Of course, this says nothing about which modes are best. It's merely interesting history.
 
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M

McX

Guest
OOOOOhhh-La-La! (french). You guys sure know how to hurt a fellow. here's a pic of a happy cat though!
 

Big Dipper

Regular Member
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
144
Location
Illinois & Wisconsin
While we may agree that condition 2 is unsafe, the design of the pistol clearly places condition 2 in a position of primacy, with regard to original design intent, over condition 1.

+1

If you go to Page 7, and the paragraph that begins on line 8 of that page, of the patent application that John M. Browning filed on February 17, 1910 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=Nd...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false), you will see that he clearly designed it with the intent that it be carried in Condition 2. It was designed so that it could indeed be uncocked with 1 hand!

That is the reason that you can pull the hammer ALL the way back with your thumb and actually depress the grip safety with the hammer spur. This was necessary in the design since you would not be able to get your thumb on the hammer if your hand fully grasped the grip enough to depress the grip safety with the palm of your hand. Once the grip safety is depressed by the hammer spur, the trigger can be pulled and the hammer slowly dropped by the thumb on that hand.

That's the theory of his patent anyway. Obviously the Army (Cavalry) didn't agree with the safety (pun intended) of that approach and asked for the inclusion of the thumb safety in the final M1911.

With an unloaded 1911, go ahead and try it and you will see that the hammer spur does indeed depress the grip safety to accommodate JMB's design intent.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
+1

If you go to Page 7, and the paragraph that begins on line 8 of that page, of the patent application that John M. Browning filed on February 17, 1910 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=Nd...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false), you will see that he clearly designed it with the intent that it be carried in Condition 2. It was designed so that it could indeed be uncocked with 1 hand!

That is the reason that you can pull the hammer ALL the way back with your thumb and actually depress the grip safety with the hammer spur. This was necessary in the design since you would not be able to get your thumb on the hammer if your hand fully grasped the grip enough to depress the grip safety with the palm of your hand. Once the grip safety is depressed by the hammer spur, the trigger can be pulled and the hammer slowly dropped by the thumb on that hand.

That's the theory of his patent anyway. Obviously the Army (Cavalry) didn't agree with the safety (pun intended) of that approach and asked for the inclusion of the thumb safety in the final M1911.

With an unloaded 1911, go ahead and try it and you will see that the hammer spur does indeed depress the grip safety to accommodate JMB's design intent.

Hey, thanks a lot for this post! I consider myself pretty knowledgeable about the subject, but it just goes to show there is always more to learn! Cool beans. :cool:
 

LR Yote 312

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2010
Messages
458
Location
God's Country, Wi
There's only one codition to be concerned about.

The way I see there is only one condition to be concerned about:

Whether or not its in my hand....Because if it is,We arent gonna be
discussing the price of coffee.

If its in my holster....Ya got nothin to worry about.

LR Yote
 

anmut

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
875
Location
Stevens Point WI, ,
I have noticed that most people carrying a 1911 carry in condition 1, cocked and locked. Is carrying in condition 2 that much different? Can't one cock the hammer as quickly as one can remove the safety? Isn't condition 2 a bit safer then condition 1?

Meh - carry a Glock and don't worry about it. :)
 
M

McX

Guest
well the cat carries condition3 , so his claw on the trigger is ok, that or, you know how cats are; shoot first ask questions, and purr later. i cant afford the nickels to get a 1911, but i refuse to be not a member of club .45, so i am looking at this gun, to make the minimal entry level in the club, plus this one looks like i can safely carry condition 1, it's not as good as my Disruptor, but it will do........now to find good ammo for it, any recommendation?

http://www.sniperworld.com/item/163...d_Guns_Pistols_Tisas_TISG4196_C45_Pistol.aspx
 

davegran

Regular Member
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,563
Location
Cassville Area -Twelve Miles From Anything, Wiscon
Another point of view to consider

....i cant afford the nickels to get a 1911, but i refuse to be not a member of club .45, so i am looking at this gun, to make the minimal entry level in the club, plus this one looks like i can safely carry condition 1, it's not as good as my Disruptor, but it will do........now to find good ammo for it, any recommendation?
Hey McX,
Just a suggestion; as long as you are armed right now, why not wait and save up a little more money before you satisfy your .45 jones. For just a few hundred $ more, you could get a
much better weapon. You might also look at used 1911s in a well-known brand; they can always be tuned and upgraded. The following stores are Springfield Armory dealers:

DROPZONE SURPLUS N GUNS.... Racine................ 262-898-9640
FLETCHER ARMS.................................... Waukesha....... 262-549-4488
THE GUN EXCHANGE......................... Elk Mound....... 715-879-4644
THE SHOOTERS SHOP..................... West Allis........ 414-327-7044

In addition, if you have never fired a 1911 you should try one before committing to buying one; you might not like it or it might not fit your hand. I'm sure that one of our members would let you try one. I would.
 

Chap

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2011
Messages
213
Location
Greenville, MS
I agree

I've owned:
9mm Browning High Power (fit my hand and loved it)
9mm Beretta 92FS (since I carried this for Coast Guard)
.45 ACP. Taurus PT-24/7 (I bought since I wanted a .45 ACP)

I currently own the Kimber Ultra carry II .45 ACP. and love it.

I hated the long trigger pull of the Taurus. :cuss: Wish I had shot it before getting it.

+1 on shooting before buying every single time........................
 
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M

McX

Guest
dave, drop zone is out of business, and i havent fired a gun i didnt like. i got some range time on springfield's 1911, and had no problem with it. i have to spend within my means, as directed by my 'government'. plus 'smacky' just aint enough, Disruptor doesnt have a reliable safety, and as i see crime rise, and more and more 'pearl harbor' type attacks on citizens, the gun i provided a link to will get me quickly into the .45 range of defense/knock down power as a carry gun, and allow me to safely carry at condition 1. this constitutes a big step for me, having carried cond 3 for many years. someday i'll strive for a real 1911, that or finally get to swipe sprifield's from him when he isnt looking.
 

polekat

Regular Member
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
61
Location
Wi
well the cat carries condition3 , so his claw on the trigger is ok, that or, you know how cats are; shoot first ask questions, and purr later. i cant afford the nickels to get a 1911, but i refuse to be not a member of club .45, so i am looking at this gun, to make the minimal entry level in the club, plus this one looks like i can safely carry condition 1, it's not as good as my Disruptor, but it will do........now to find good ammo for it, any recommendation?


Try Walmart for practice ammo. They had bulk packages of .45 acp 230 grain FMJ for around $36.00 for 100 rounds. It's brass cased ammo that can be reloaded.

To search online try: http://ammoseek.com/
 
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marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
well the cat carries condition3 , so his claw on the trigger is ok, that or, you know how cats are; shoot first ask questions, and purr later. i cant afford the nickels to get a 1911, but i refuse to be not a member of club .45, so i am looking at this gun, to make the minimal entry level in the club, plus this one looks like i can safely carry condition 1, it's not as good as my Disruptor, but it will do........now to find good ammo for it, any recommendation?

http://www.sniperworld.com/item/163...d_Guns_Pistols_Tisas_TISG4196_C45_Pistol.aspx

Why not look at a Rock Island Armory tactical? You can have one for just over $400, and it's a 1911 to boot! :p
 
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