Not concerned about being arrested - more concerned about being shot!!

For many years, I've wanted to OC but doing so in California as an African-American male might result in my being shot by law enforcement. Sure they have a very tough job - I have several family members that are in law enforcement as well as the judicial system - but many tend to shoot before asking questions then justify their actions with statements like: "I feared for my life"; "He reached for his weapon"; etc...

I'm a well established educated professional who's never been on the wrong side of the law but am certain that if I choose to OC, an over zealous cop will take an action that may prove detrimental to my health.

In the famous words of the prophet Katt Williams.... "get some white friends" ha! But in all seriousness race has little to do with how a cop reacts, as long as you are courteous and know the laws he isn't gonna jump out of his car and start blasting. But I too am new to this and would suggest looking for scheduled meet up events that get posted on the forum and go there first (safety in numbers). That's what I am doing.

Let me alter my response and say instead racial stereotypes might affect the interaction but not the ultimate outcome... If you look like a cholo/crypt/blood/ gang banger wanna be then officer #1 starts charging the taser... But if not then you being calm and educated affects the outcome. I too come from a law enforcement heavy family and they always tell me that the suspect dictates the officers reaction. (for atleast those officers who are not green on the streets)

check out SouthBay Open Carry, and/or Orange County Open Carry.

I would also agree that your demeanor and dress plays a part in the contact. When I UOC alone, or in a group, I always wear a nice polo shirt with a black undershirt (I run my mic from my recorder which is black up to my neck) so I look like an average well dressed citizen. I've found it's very important to look seemingly "above average," not just some grubby jeans and a Tshirt. When contacted be LEO, or with my encounters with citizens, im always very friendly and greet people who meet my eye line with a warm smile and a hello.
When you are contacted by LEO - cause it will happen eventually, always act 1 step above them in courtesy, no matter how much they trample on your rights. I always have to very respectfully remind them in specific laws and I always give them a flyer as well after the contact is over. A particular Deputy with San Marcos was pretty pleased with the contact and applauded that I was so prepared for LEO and citizen contacts.

If you're always prepared, you will never have to get ready. No funky furtive movements, as they say and always be polite.

Hope that helps,
Carry On

marinedoc said:

But in all seriousness race has little to do with how a cop reacts.

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False.

marshaul said:

False.

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Gotta go with Marshaul on this one. I hate the fact, but it's none the less true. Cops (and LAPD in particular) do tend to freak out on black guys a lot quicker than most others. Hell they have a hard time not getting shot for carrying a cell phone, let alone a gun.

But with that being said, I would agree that safety in numbers would be advantageous for the OP. At least for now.

BTW welcome, Deadeye!

marshaul said:

False.

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well i am sure around here in california that is true.... this place is crazy. but back where i am from in florida it doesnt. most of the LEO that i know (i pretty much know whole departments lol) tell me that they let the initial contact dictate how they react in turn. you give them lip they mess with you, you be polite they act in kind. i am just putting it out there from the other side.

marinedoc said:

but back where i am from in florida it doesnt. most of the LEO that i know (i pretty much know whole departments lol) tell me that they let the initial contact dictate how they react in turn.

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So, you've made your appraisal not by having experienced being black, but by asking LEOs how they act?

"Why, yes, I am a racist! I hassle black people all the time! And usually they're guilty of something and the rest are too congenitally STUPID to do anything about it! Haha!" -- Florida cop.

As a former LEO - it didn't ever matter to me.

When I worked a predominantly white area - I mostly arrested white people.
When I worked a predominantly hispanic area - I mostly arrested hispanic people.

etc etc etc

but I suppose there is at least anecdotal evidence that my views are not the views of every LEO out there...

We have a black president! This whole race and color thing should be over! What past experience has the OP had in the past to prove ALL cops will shoot for NO reason? I hope TV and Movies arnt part of the answer.

Where do you plane to carry. If I were in a BAD area I would want a gun! I stay out of known BAD areas. Not that crime only happens in BAD areas. Any cop working a high crime area should and will be on a higher alert level. And thus will react differently.

In my experience UOCing being White in nice areas police react because of the GUN! I have been held gun point by police. Held at low ready by police. Thrown to the ground cuffed and put into cop cars twice. For a total of two hours. It's not fun but it's paving the way for others. Others have paved the way for me.
In long beach a non black was shot to death by LBPD because he held a water hose nosle that "looked" like a gun.

In Los Angeles a coo responding to a store armed robbery shot at the store clerk 8 times missing him. Because the store clerk ran outside to point out the direction the suspect ran.

IMO police today are NOT well trained on the law or your rights. He'll most people don't know how this country works when it comes to their rights. How can cops know. They have a job to do and could care less about peoples rights. Why would they care about rights people don't even know about. We ARE living in a police state. So know the law and stand your ground. Wrong place wrong time you will get shot at by police. NOT because of race IMO.

Be proud of being black and paving the way for others. If not you who?

Good luck and carry on.

marshaul said:

So, you've made your appraisal not by having experienced being black, but by asking LEOs how they act?

"Why, yes, I am a racist! I hassle black people all the time! And usually they're guilty of something and the rest are too congenitally STUPID to do anything about it! Haha!" -- Florida cop.

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There are shitheads everywhere that give the rest a bad name, it doesn't change the fact that your actions dictate how you are treated. Everyone blames the police officer for their bad experience instead of looking into how they could have changed the outcome with their own actions. The police are tasked with a job. It is a shitty job sometimes. Other times it is rewarding. But in the end it is a job that we as the public ask them to do. If people have such a problem with the police why don't they become one themselves and make a difference... Unfortunately I don't see a line around the corner at the police department of people looking to do the job...

Dead Eye what city or area are you considering carrying in? Try and hook up with some groups or individuals in your area.

Some of your comments appear to reinforce the justification for a good shoot where the officer was justified in discharging his weapon - even in a negligent manner. Particularly the post from 'ryanburbridge', who stated "We have a black president! This whole race and color thing should be over!"

Are you serious! Because we now have a black president in no way diminishes the fact that LEO's, and others, are still profiling, harrassing, stopping, arresting, convicting and shooting a disproportionate number of black males and other "minorities", many of whom are mostly law abiding citizens whom are often judged by nothing more than their appearance (i.e., skin color).

Studies and statistics clearly indicate that if you place a black victim of a crime that was perpetrated by a white suspect side-by-side, LEO's automatically draw their weapons on the black "VICTIM" rather than the white "SUSPECT", which often results in the black "VICTIM" being shot by the officers who were dispatched to render assistance. How many black undercover cops have been shot/killed by white uniformed officers, while the white criminal was allowed to escape?

It's obviously not my intent to turn this into a race issue!! However, it's definitely a major issue and a topic of concern in many communities, and one that most whites don't experience nor are willing to address: the daily stress and problems that people of color are forced to deal with.

Be safe...

marinedoc said:

If people have such a problem with the police why don't they become one themselves and make a difference...

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For starters, many of us have enough respect for our fellow countrymen to wish them basic freedoms, such as the freedom to exercise their constitutional rights, and the freedom to decide responsibility for themselves. We have no wish to take on a job whose responsibilities include enforcement of countless laws that impede that very simple objective. Nor do we have any wish to take on the headaches that would come from doing the job halfway -- at least in the minds of those who would be our superiors, were we to do as you suggest -- as compliance with the Constitution and simple morality would seem to dictate.

Also, many (I suspect most) people really just don't like cops. We generally make fun of them. Who wants to subject themselves to that?

I submit that most people who like cops are already A: one of them (or family, see B), B: apologists on internet fora for them, or C: working as crew for yet another TV show excessively glorifying them. (I've noticed that there are way more shows obsequiously, sycophantically glorifying police than public opinion could justify. I suspect most of the audience are members of one of the above groups.)

Unfortunately I don't see a line around the corner at the police department of people looking to do the job...

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I suspect that many people also have a similar level of respect for their fellow man.

Dead Eye Dick said:

Some of your comments appear to reinforce the justification for a good shoot where the officer was justified in discharging his weapon - even in a negligent manner. Particularly the post from 'ryanburbridge', who stated "We have a black president! This whole race and color thing should be over!"

Are you serious! Because we now have a black president in no way diminishes the fact that LEO's, and others, are still profiling, harrassing, stopping, arresting, convicting and shooting a disproportionate number of black males and other "minorities", many of whom are mostly law abiding citizens whom are often judged by nothing more than their appearance (i.e., skin color).

Studies and statistics clearly indicate that if you place a black victim of a crime that was perpetrated by a white suspect side-by-side, LEO's automatically draw their weapons on the black "VICTIM" rather than the white "SUSPECT", which often results in the black "VICTIM" being shot by the officers who were dispatched to render assistance. How many black undercover cops have been shot/killed by white uniformed officers, while the white criminal was allowed to escape?

It's obviously not my intent to turn this into a race issue!! However, it's definitely a major issue and a topic of concern in many communities, and one that most whites don't experience nor are willing to address: the daily stress and problems that people of color are forced to deal with.

Be safe...

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Friend, from my white perspective, it is a race issue, and anyone who denies it is not living in reality but a virtual world of their own imagination.

There are several black men that I saw on Youtube. They were OCing in the video. They were wearing long sleeve, white shirts with ties, and dress slacks. In the second link I've given, the man is carrying a rifle. I am not advocating for or against that. I have it here so you can see how they are dressed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v85_soAgQr4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTUQFV95WXE

I know there is unfair treatment of the blacks when it comes to LEOs. You do not get the same treatment as whites. It is a fact.

I would suggest that you dress nicely and act professional in your demeanor. Don't raise your voice, do not make furtive movements. Do not say anything that will agitate or stir the LEOs to more aggression. They are already confrontational, or they wouldn't be there. You have two strikes against you already. You are armed, and you are black. I'm sorry that it is that way, but it is that way.

Carry safely...carry smart.

Live to a ripe, old age.

Dead Eye Dick,

Let me be the first to offer to OC with you. I pass for white 99% of the time, and I totally understand your apprehension. There are just too many factors that can easily place you in the firing line, and it would be all to easy for those of us not in your skin to dismiss the notion of racial prejiduce as antique. Regardless of the best intentions of law enforcement these days, some habits are very hard to break.
If you are in my area, I'll open carry with you.

AyatollahGondola said:

Dead Eye Dick,

Let me be the first to offer to OC with you. I pass for white 99% of the time, and I totally understand your apprehension. There are just too many factors that can easily place you in the firing line, and it would be all to easy for those of us not in your skin to dismiss the notion of racial prejiduce as antique. Regardless of the best intentions of law enforcement these days, some habits are very hard to break.
If you are in my area, I'll open carry with you.

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As will I.

marshaul said:

Also, many (I suspect most) people really just don't like cops. We generally make fun of them. Who wants to subject themselves to that?

I submit that most people who like cops are already A: one of them (or family, see B), B: apologists on internet fora for them, or C: working as crew for yet another TV show excessively glorifying them. (I've noticed that there are way more shows obsequiously, sycophantically glorifying police than public opinion could justify. I suspect most of the audience are members of one of the above groups.)

I suspect that many people also have a similar level of respect for their fellow man.

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Dont forget D: Work along side them, hand in hand, providing help for people.

Be careful your not labeling all LE as the same as the small % that misuse or mistreat you and your rights. Unless you have walked a mile in their shoes or even along side them YOU have no idea who they are or what they believe. Perhaps you only encounter bad cops or bad interactions with them because you seek them out or they seek you out. I have interviewed many many LE officers regarding open carry, the vast majority 80%+ either support it or dont really care about it, and if they had a choice to run a call for a Open carry contact they would rather someone else take it becasue of the potential (headache of being on youtube, recorded, complained about and being treated abrasively), and that someone else can tend to be the LEO who doesnt like it and wants to show you. And so, many people have negative interactions and label all cops as terrible because they have seen only a few.

"judge not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character"

Most cops in LA are black or hispanic. White cops in LAPD and LASD are the minority.