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'Hell no' right back at you, Seattle Times

VW_Factor

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Did I ever claim that?

I think you are unfamiliar with personal responsibility, and what it means given your rights. People that think like you do sir, are a reason why our rights are eroded over time.

Please. Don't continue to mistake having to take responsibility for your own actions as limits to your actions or rights.
 
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Tawnos

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So if is is ok to limit you to ten rounds does that make it ok to limit you to one gun? That would seem to be a logical extension. Who needs more than one anyways? And of course extra magazines should be outlawed as well. For me this is what all the fuss is about.
irfner

He was making a joke about "clips" versus "magazines".
 

Tawnos

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I think you are unfamiliar with personal responsibility, and what it means given your rights. People that think like you do sir, are a reason why our rights are eroded over time.

Please. Don't continue to mistake having to take responsibility for your own actions limits to your actions or rights.

Interesting, did you read anything of what I said? I'd like to know where my analysis was flawed. Moreover, could you show me how my thoughts are the reason our rights are eroded over time? Last I checked, nothing I said was related to taking responsibility for ones' actions. Instead, it addressed the question of whether a proscriptive government ban on a particular exercise of speech constitutes a limit on that speech. I believe I showed that it does, the court agrees it does, and that the court finds that under specific circumstances such a restriction on free speech can be found constitutional. Again, it's not whether the abridgment of the right exists, but if the abridgment is acceptable under the first amendment.
 

VW_Factor

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[snip] Moreover, could you show me how my thoughts are the reason our rights are eroded over time? [snip] Instead, it addressed the question of whether a proscriptive government ban on a particular exercise of speech constitutes a limit on that speech. I believe I showed that it does.[snip]

I'll quote this and do just that.

While it seems we disagree, we'll just have to agree that we disagree.. I see what you are posting here, and I understand where it comes from. I see it as a problem.

I see someone who mistakes a persons responsibility and obligation to make sure their own rights do not impede the rights of others.. As a limit to his OWN rights.

I am sorry you feel that way.

Maybe its simply two different way of looking at it. Or perhaps its something more than that.
 

Tawnos

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Wouldn't that be the Northern states in their war of aggression as they deprived the Southern states of the constitutionally guaranteed right to secede? Millions of American lives were lost.

Are you really trying that tired line? First, who attacked first? Kind of hard to call it a "war of aggression" when you were fired upon. Two, where do you see that states have 1) rights or 2) power to secede under the constitution of the union? Three, yeah, it's sad that an entire portion of the country decided a declaration of war was the best way to adjust to a changing economic situation. Don't try the whole state's rights BS. States have powers, not rights, and a simple reading of the CSA's constitution (especially compared with the US's) shows that they were concerned with preserving the institution of slavery to further their economic ends, rather than the union being a problem.
 

Tawnos

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I'll quote this and do just that.

While it seems we disagree, we'll just have to agree that we disagree.. I see what you are posting here, and I understand where it comes from. I see it as a problem.

I see someone who mistakes a persons responsibility and obligation to make sure their own rights do not impede the rights of others.. As a limit to his OWN rights.

I am sorry you feel that way.

Maybe its simply two different way of looking at it. Or perhaps its something more than that.
WHY is it a problem to see a government imposed ban on any speech that has the chance to incite imminent harm as a limitation of free speech? Just because it is a limitation doesn't mean that the existence of the limitation is incorrect. But to claim that it's not an abridgment of free speech is laughable. Hell, you call it "a limit to his OWN rights" - acknowledging that it IS, in fact, a limit - contradicting your earlier claim that there "is no limit".
 
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Ruby

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Renton, Washington, USA
I must be the only one to agree with The Seattle Times. I don't see any harm in limiting clips to ten rounds.

I've never even seen a higher capacity clip. Garands are what, eight rounds? Don't know about Steyrs or Carcanos. SKS have ten round stripper clips. I suppose some C96 Mauser owners might be sore.

I guess I just don't see what the fuss is about.

And, you'd think that anyone buying ink by the barrel, like The Seattle Times, would care about the meaning of words.

Plenty of handguns have magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. Sounds like you are talking about rifles. Correct me if I am wrong, I am not familiar with the guns you have mentioned. They want to ban higher capacity mags in handguns. I have a S & W M & P 9 mil compact that holds 12 rounds. A LOT of other pistols hold 15, 16 rounds. So yes, it is a problem. There are millions of these mags in existence. Besides which, limiting the number of rounds doesn't do anything. When that mag is empty, you simply load another one, or carry another gun, or ignore the ban and use the high cap mag. It's not going to stop a criminal intent on killing people.
 

Ruby

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To clarify, when these people who are proposing a ban on a "clip" they actually do mean "magazine", specifically handgun magazines. They are simply using the wrong terminology. This ban was actually in effect for a while, then expired. I am sorry I don't know more of the particulars about it, I was not into guns at the time.
 

amzbrady

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Marysville, Washington, USA
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Mattoon Thomas - 1944 Speech

Or then again maybe some will...
 

Tawnos

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To clarify, when these people who are proposing a ban on a "clip" they actually do mean "magazine", specifically handgun magazines. They are simply using the wrong terminology. This ban was actually in effect for a while, then expired. I am sorry I don't know more of the particulars about it, I was not into guns at the time.

He understands that, and is clearly making fun of the fact people are talking about banning high capacity "clips" not "magazines".

Sarcasm is lost online without the sarcasm tag (~)
 

Tawnos

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seriously?

/facepalm

Yes. You said "there is no limit" then suddenly it was "a limit on his own rights". The fact is, I agree that there are limits to free speech. To be honest enough to call them that does not change their nature as limits upon free speech. Truthfully, none of our rights are unlimited, and I think it's hard to argue they should be. One may certainly try, but they quickly run into the wall of practicality.
 

amlevin

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Plenty of handguns have magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. Sounds like you are talking about rifles. Correct me if I am wrong, I am not familiar with the guns you have mentioned. They want to ban higher capacity mags in handguns. I have a S & W M & P 9 mil compact that holds 12 rounds. A LOT of other pistols hold 15, 16 rounds. So yes, it is a problem. There are millions of these mags in existence. Besides which, limiting the number of rounds doesn't do anything. When that mag is empty, you simply load another one, or carry another gun, or ignore the ban and use the high cap mag. It's not going to stop a criminal intent on killing people.

And if someone wants to get serious and kill LOTS of people at one time they do just like the "jihadists" in the Mid East. They fill the family car with explosives and drive to a local market. We haven't seen that here other than Oklahoma City but how long will we maintain our "innocence"?

You are dead on with your assessment that people who need more ammo will just carry more mags. Just because they have to reload won't lower the toll. The "Columbine Shooters" reloaded several times. How about VA Tech?
 
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sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County
You'd have to show me a lot of proof that he was right, because everything I've seen shows that McCarthy went on the most un-American witch hunt of our country's history.

You cite were he did? The release of Soviet Cables proved the specific people he was after were communist. He was only concerned with the communist in government, he did not go on a "nation wide witch" hunt. This is the myth of McCarthyism.

Let's remember that FDR loved Stalin, called him "Uncle Joe". Coincidentally he is one brought so much communistic/socialistic bills to fruition.
 

amlevin

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You cite were he did? The release of Soviet Cables proved the specific people he was after were communist. He was only concerned with the communist in government, he did not go on a "nation wide witch" hunt. This is the myth of McCarthyism.

And according to some, the "Verona" messages only proved that 9 of the over 150 people he identified were really Communist.

This pretty much sums up Senator McCarthy's actions:

"William Bennett, former Reagan Administration Secretary of Education, opined in his 2007 book America: The Last Best Hope:
The cause of anti-communism, which united millions of Americans and which gained the support of Democrats, Republicans and independents, was undermined by Sen. Joe McCarthy … McCarthy addressed a real problem: disloyal elements within the U.S. government. But his approach to this real problem was to cause untold grief to the country he claimed to love … Worst of all, McCarthy besmirched the honorable cause of anti-communism. He discredited legitimate efforts to counter Soviet subversion of American institutions."

As is often the case, the mission was justified but the tactics alienated the public.
 

Tawnos

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Aren't these your words?

Indeed, and read what they're actually saying. For some reason, you took what I was saying (i.e. that it was a limit) and turned it into some sort of qualification or reflection upon the totality of my beliefs. Nowhere was I saying that I "believe one's rights are unlimited? Free to do whatever you want, anytime, anywhere, to anyone?" That was something you constructed. We can disagree where the line is, but to argue it's not a limit is disingenuous.

I'll give you an example:
If I tell you "you're free to say anything you want, and I may not do anything to punish you for saying something" and then say "if you say something that scares someone and they hurt themselves as a result, I'm going to lock you up" then I have given you two conflicting pieces of information. The second is certainly a limit on the freedom expressed in the first. When evaluating whether a particular limit on freedom of speech is acceptable, it should be taken with that in mind, because though I agree certain limits are acceptable (assault is, after all, a form of speech - one that I think may be limited), the measure of where the limit stands should be strictly and narrowly tailored.

If people like VW_Factor could get beyond whether it is or is not a limit, they would see that the main point is that I see McCarthy screwing up the standard that was originally stated in Schenck. In that example she's mangling, something which poses imminent and immediate harm was used as an example of acceptable limits to free speech. Her high/standard capacity magazine ban doesn't address something of that standard, but we already have laws that do!
 

Tawnos

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As is often the case, the mission was justified but the tactics alienated the public.

More than alienated the public. It started a widespread panic followed by the creation of other parties following in his footsteps, but applied to the public. The most striking example of this is the HUAC.

I compared the two McCarthys because they both tried addressing what they thought as a threat to the safety of the US by attacking the rights of those they thought embraced that threat. The current McCarthy could rely on the fact that murder is currently illegal, assault with a deadly weapon is currently illegal, etc. Instead, she goes after the "silver scare" (red scare:communism::silver scare:firearms) through all sorts of tactics. The former McCarthy could have relied on treason, espionage, etc, but instead started a huge and public campaign to target communists specifically. There are a bunch of similarities between how the two operate: they demonize their opponent, speak fearfully as if the very existence of what they oppose threatens them, and seek to add more and more laws that make mere possession of something (be it an idea or a piece of equipment) illegal, rather than using the existing statutes to punish an actual harm (using that idea to spy on the government, taking that piece of equipment and injuring another with it).
 
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