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Thread: Great article on AZ constitutional Carry

  1. #1
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    Great article on AZ constitutional Carry

    http://mensnewsdaily.com/2010/04/17/...-for-firearms/

    “Opportunities for firearms training and gun safety can INCREASE tremendously with this new law”, said Alan Korwin, author of The Arizona Gun Owner’s Guide, the book that describes the state’s gun laws in plain English. “INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON A TINY PERCENTAGE OF THE MARKET WILLING TO SUBMIT TO THE PERMIT SYSTEM, SMART TRAINERS CAN OFFER FREEDOM TO CARRY CLASSES TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. We’re anticipating Family Days At The Range and Constitutional Carry classes to spring up statewide,” he said. Removal of the $60 tax for the permit represents a significant discount, he notes.
    Q: Training is a good thing, why was it eliminated?

    A: Training is indeed a good thing and it is not eliminated. Anyone can and should take as much training as they want, which is voluntary. What has changed is that you are no longer forced to take government-mandated classes, registration and taxes before you can exercise your right to carry discreetly. This is the same formula working in Arizona since statehood for open carry (which includes concealed carry in your home, business, land, vehicle (with some minor conditions), and in a visible scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons, or in luggage. Now that the half of the public that bears arms can do so discreetly, MANY EXPERTS EXPECT STATEWIDE GUN TRAINING TO FLOURISH.
    Q: Won’t people shoot each other if they’re not required to take the training?

    A: Twelve states currently issue CCW permits without a training requirement and they’re doing just fine. Half of Arizonans exercise their right to arms without government-demanded training and they’re doing just fine. The idea that you’re only safe if government requires training is statist, foolish and incorrect. That said, responsible people should get education and training for firearms—and swimming, machine tools, medical care, raising children, being married, owning a home, preparing food, writing articles, etc., without government mandates.

    If government could require training for everything that has risk, your freedom would be evaporated and your government would be out of line. Government has no legitimate delegated authority in this country to be your nanny like that, or to require anything beyond the specific, limited delegated powers given to it in the Constitution and subsequent valid legislation. The fact that government has in many cases abandoned those constraints is part of why the Tea Party movement has gained such ground and, in some cases, driven the public out into the streets with pitchforks (figuratively).

    Currently, 11 states issue carry permits without training and they’re fine (AL, DE, GA, ID, IN, MD, MS, NH, PA, SD, WA). Because Arizona recognizes all other permits, many of our snowbirds have been carrying under those permits, without problems.
    "AFTERWORD: INSIDER INFORMATION:

    There is one reason and one reason only why this got done –
    The Arizona Citizens Defense League.

    That small handful of guys running this group, the two full-time volunteer lobbyists Dave Kopp and John Wentling, and the thousands of members who supported the effort with their tiny membership dues are exactly and precisely why our rights have expanded.

    It was a deliberate, conscientious, focused and tireless effort from what must be a candidate for the best pro-rights organization in the nation. Get your friends to join, send a donation or buy a t-shirt or hat, attend the meetings, and in your little way, make a difference and preserve our rights. http://www.azcdl.org/

    One other tidbit — the NRA was rightfully nervous about this whole Freedom To Carry, permitless, no training, no red tape expansion of our rights. They dragged their feet at first, that’s putting it mildly, and I can’t say I blame them. An awful lot was on the line.

    They wanted to be prudent. Limit exposure and risk. They have all their trainers to think about and that revenue stream. The chance of falling flat on your face in total embarrassment is a serious concern. The ease with which the antis might cast us as dangerous gun-toting (their media’s favorite slur) nuts is a real issue.

    I personally debated hard with some of the top brass, and to their credit, they finally agreed not to fight the effort in Arizona, and eventually saw the light and got on board. Some gun owners like to pick on the NRA, but the NRA is going to be at the forefront of this battle. The Constitutional Carry issue does make sense, for them and for us. It will be a winner in some states, maybe yours, and does advance everything for which NRA members stand.


    Yes, some of those members, steeped in darkness, or hooked on the government-permit feed trough, believe that red-tapeless carry is a bad idea. They crave government supervision. They want that permission slip in their wallet. They’ll learn, and come around. And continue to get fine training from NRA certified and other trainers because it’s the right thing to do, not because the government commands it. Appleseed is doing a phenomenal job in the training arena too, check them out while you’re at it. http://www.appleseedinfo.org/
    Last edited by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman; 01-20-2011 at 11:18 AM.
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  2. #2
    Regular Member XDFDE45's Avatar
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    That's what I'm talking about
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  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Good article......but...

    Where can we get full time volunteer lobbyists for us and for WCI?

    We need something because although the legislators are obviously hearing us, they don't seem to be listening. We need more than letters to them to make sure the bill crafted and brought up for vote is what we want.
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  4. #4
    McX
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    i simply must...............as though i am being compelled........................permits?! we dont need no steenkin permits! and apparently some other states feel the same, and others are considering it!

  5. #5
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    they don't seem to be listening.
    They are listening.

    There will be no shot heard round the capital... Ok, bad analogy...

    There is no ah ha moment.

    Politicians typically commit to something at the last possible moment they have to.

    Don't expect politicians to jump up and down, call a presser and declare their support for constitutional carry on tv.

    Keep making the polite calls.

    Follow up calls with emails of tidbits of information like this.

    They are listening. Most just aren't committing to anything until they have to.

    They need to continue to hear from people.

    There is a lobbyist pursuing constitutional carry. The next question your going to ask is who, and of course I'm not going to answer that on a public forum.

    That said more lobbyists can't hurt, but most lobbyists don't work for free. From what I know "volunteer" lobbyists aren't technically lobbyists because lobbyists are registered and you only have to register if you get paid.

    Don't quote me, I'm not an expert on lobbyists, but given those parameters any volunteer who has time to go to Madison and talk to legislators full time is free to do so.
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  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    To Clarify....

    I'm not so worried that we don't have the support to get a bill through. I'm more worried about what that bill will be. The crafting of the actual bill is the process that seems to be envoloped in mystery to me and I fear that only an insider will have influence on the language.

    Since I believe either a shall issue or constitutional carry will pass; the importance of having a little bird in the ear of the crafter of the legislation seems more poignant at this time than a thousand little birds in the ears of their representatives. When the actual bill is crafted and brought up though, the thousand little birds are most important.

    I've been checking the legislatures website every day to see if a bill shows up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    Don't quote me, I'm not an expert on lobbyists, but given those parameters any volunteer who has time to go to Madison and talk to legislators full time is free to do so.
    I wish I was retired or independantly wealthy.........
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 01-20-2011 at 12:18 PM.
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  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    I wish I was retired or independantly wealthy.........
    You and me both. I'm no where near being retired and doubtful I'll become extremely wealthy.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  8. #8
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    Smart trainers are already discounting classes, and filling them. Firearms training could become synonymous with other markets as to the advertisement and competition level of the industry. Within Arizona of course.
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    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
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    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

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  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    I'm not so worried that we don't have the support to get a bill through. I'm more worried about what that bill will be. The crafting of the actual bill is the process that seems to be envoloped in mystery to me and I fear that only an insider will have influence on the language.

    Since I believe either a shall issue or constitutional carry will pass; the importance of having a little bird in the ear of the crafter of the legislation seems more poignant at this time than a thousand little birds in the ears of their representatives. When the actual bill is crafted and brought up though, the thousand little birds are most important.

    I've been checking the legislatures website every day to see if a bill shows up.



    I wish I was retired or independantly wealthy.........

    Well put. I worry about what the LRB will suggest when drafting the bill. Their issue papers done in connection with the bill will affect the legislature's viewpoint.

    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lrb/pubs/wb/08wb16.pdf When they update this one, will they include the Chicago case and a discussion that open carry in and of itself is not disorderly conduct?

    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lrb/pubs/wb/06wb6.pdf If they provide an update to this one, will they include the current Constutitional Carry legislation that is occuring across the nation?

    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lrb/pubs/wb/04wb1.pdf This is an interesting read as they summarize the for and antis' arguements, rights of property owners and employers. Expect a rehash of the same this time around.

    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lrb/pubs/wb/00wb11.pdf This one talks about Milwaukee's "Operation Ceasefire." It was intended to reduce unlawful possession of firearms in Milwaukee. Another failed firearm control PR "guns are evil" effort .

    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lrb/pubs/wb/98wb10.pdf Talks about the state right to bear arms Constitution admendment. Read the concerns of the antis. Cry Wolf! Wolf!
    Last edited by Flipper; 01-20-2011 at 01:07 PM.
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
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    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

  10. #10
    Regular Member anmut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    They are listening.

    There will be no shot heard round the capital... Ok, bad analogy...

    There is no ah ha moment.

    Politicians typically commit to something at the last possible moment they have to.

    Don't expect politicians to jump up and down, call a presser and declare their support for constitutional carry on tv.

    Keep making the polite calls.

    Follow up calls with emails of tidbits of information like this.

    They are listening. Most just aren't committing to anything until they have to.

    They need to continue to hear from people.

    There is a lobbyist pursuing constitutional carry. The next question your going to ask is who, and of course I'm not going to answer that on a public forum.

    That said more lobbyists can't hurt, but most lobbyists don't work for free. From what I know "volunteer" lobbyists aren't technically lobbyists because lobbyists are registered and you only have to register if you get paid.

    Don't quote me, I'm not an expert on lobbyists, but given those parameters any volunteer who has time to go to Madison and talk to legislators full time is free to do so.
    Nik - has WCI ever considered running some ads in newspapers? Could be useful when the media picks it up to have already gotten our word out there to the masses. Because we know that the money behind WAVE will have their ads out in full force.

  11. #11
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anmut View Post
    Nik - has WCI ever considered running some ads in newspapers? Could be useful when the media picks it up to have already gotten our word out there to the masses. Because we know that the money behind WAVE will have their ads out in full force.
    +1
    I would be willing to throw a few nickles in the pot for this. How about anyone else?
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

  12. #12
    Regular Member BrewTownBagger's Avatar
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    I dont know about newspaper ads, but I have run radio spots before when I needed to sell a house. There is a company in arizona that will hold a auction for airtime. I was able to run a 60sec commercial almost 40 times on 94.5 and am620 for less than $2,000.00.

    You hit a lot more people with radio and the ads a much more effective due to the tone and emotion that they deliver

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