Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28

Thread: open carry in arnold. i called the police department.

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2

    open carry in arnold. i called the police department.

    My name is josh i am 22 years old and i open carried for my first time today. Like everyone, on here i wanted to know the laws and how the leo's would react about oc. I called the police department and the officer that helped me was very friendly and honest. I asked him about the legality of carrying openly in the arnold city limits. He explained to me that it is not illegal and HE had no problem with it. He informed me that if someone called in and complained, depending on what officer showed up i could be charged with disturbing the peace.

    I found this man to be very helpful. i open carried at the gas station to fuel my car up and had no funny looks at all. I will oc more often now that i know that it is legal.
    Last edited by Josh Carne; 01-20-2011 at 02:52 PM.

  2. #2
    Activist Member N605TW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    118
    Welcome Josh,
    I have found that most people don't notice, or don't care that your carrying. I sometimes will get odd looks but I like to think I got those kinds of looks before I started to carry
    My best advise to you, is that you look up the laws on audio and/or video recording in public. Then get a recorder and carry it all the time. It may come in handy if you are stopped by an officer that would otherwise try to charge you with a bogus crime.

  3. #3
    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    , Missouri, USA
    Posts
    687
    For the record, Josh, simply openly carrying a firearm in a jurisdiction that has no ordinance against it does NOT meet the legal requirements for peace disturbance, regardless of which officer "shows up". You would actually have to be doing something that DOES meet the legal standards of "peace disturbance" in order to be prosecuted for that crime.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    115
    Josh,
    Welcome to the OC world. There are a few things to remember when OCing.
    #1 Do not take the gun from it's holster for any reason other than self defense.
    #2 If you are approached by police, remain as calm and cooperative as possible.
    #3 If the officer does arrest you, do not resist. If you are being arrested when there is no violation of the law, contact a lawyer asap.
    #4 Read Arnold's city ordinance on peace disturbance, weapons or any thing that MIGHT be used against you.
    The responsibility is ours, the results, GODS

  5. #5
    Regular Member mFonz77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Sierra Vista, AZ
    Posts
    265
    Welcome! Glad to see someone else joining the ranks. I was born in Arnold and have family there still. Maybe I'll see you round one of these days!
    My location says I am from Sierra Vista, AZ which is where I live now but I actually lived in MO for 26 years! So please stop telling me I don't know what I'm talking about when I post in the Missouri forum!

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2

    Thank you

    Thank you guys. i think this forum will be very helpful to me. just knowing that i am not alone in the thought of open carrying. I also think it is sad that we as a nation have gotten so gun shy. think about it. Everyone on here talks about how scared they were to carry their first time in public. I just feel that it is a very bad thing that we have gotten afraid to exercise our 2nd amendment right to the fullest.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Arnold, mo
    Posts
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Carne View Post
    My name is josh i am 22 years old and i open carried for my first time today. Like everyone, on here i wanted to know the laws and how the leo's would react about oc. I called the police department and the officer that helped me was very friendly and honest. I asked him about the legality of carrying openly in the arnold city limits. He explained to me that it is not illegal and HE had no problem with it. He informed me that if someone called in and complained, depending on what officer showed up i could be charged with disturbing the peace.

    I found this man to be very helpful. i open carried at the gas station to fuel my car up and had no funny looks at all. I will oc more often now that i know that it is legal.
    Read the laws for arnold. arnold is a double edged sword with the law it's on how you read it
    Last edited by lancej3540; 01-22-2011 at 09:19 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    st louis
    Posts
    640
    ....having upon or about his person, concealed or exposed, any kind of firearms,..


    dont know how they can enforce concealed...because they cant.

    anyone have a link to arnold codes?

  9. #9
    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Overland, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    724
    Quote Originally Posted by kylemoul View Post
    ....having upon or about his person, concealed or exposed, any kind of firearms,..


    dont know how they can enforce concealed...because they cant.

    anyone have a link to arnold codes?
    http://library3.municode.com/default...ction=whatsnew

    enjoy your reading.

    Doc

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Arnold, mo
    Posts
    11
    Sec. 17-21. Dangerous and concealed weapons; prohibitions concerning.
    If any person shall carry concealed upon or about his person a dangerous or deadly weapon of any kind or description, or shall go into any church or place where people have assembled for religious worship, or into any schoolroom or place where people are assembled for educational, political, literary or social purposes, or to any election precinct on any election day, or into any courtroom during the sitting of court, or into any other public assemblage of persons met for any lawful purpose other than for militia drill, or meetings called under militia law of this state, having upon or about his person, concealed or exposed, any kind of firearms, bowie knife, springback knife, razor, metal knucks, billy, sword cane, dirk, dagger, slingshot or other similar deadly weapons or shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit any such weapons in a rude, angry or threatening manner, or shall have any such weapon in his possession when intoxicated, or directly or indirectly, sell or deliver, loan or barter to any minor any such weapon, without the consent of the parent or guardian of such minor, he shall, upon conviction, be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor; but nothing contained in this section shall apply to legally qualified sheriffs, police officers and other persons whose bona fide duty it is to execute process, civil or criminal, make arrests, or aid in conserving the public peace, nor to persons traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state.

  11. #11
    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    , Missouri, USA
    Posts
    687
    Quote Originally Posted by lancej3540 View Post
    Sec. 17-21. Dangerous and concealed weapons; prohibitions concerning.
    If any person shall carry concealed upon or about his person a dangerous or deadly weapon of any kind or description, or shall go into any church or place where people have assembled for religious worship, or into any schoolroom or place where people are assembled for educational, political, literary or social purposes, or to any election precinct on any election day, or into any courtroom during the sitting of court, or into any other public assemblage of persons met for any lawful purpose other than for militia drill, or meetings called under militia law of this state, having upon or about his person, concealed or exposed, any kind of firearms, bowie knife, springback knife, razor, metal knucks, billy, sword cane, dirk, dagger, slingshot or other similar deadly weapons or shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit any such weapons in a rude, angry or threatening manner, or shall have any such weapon in his possession when intoxicated, or directly or indirectly, sell or deliver, loan or barter to any minor any such weapon, without the consent of the parent or guardian of such minor, he shall, upon conviction, be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor; but nothing contained in this section shall apply to legally qualified sheriffs, police officers and other persons whose bona fide duty it is to execute process, civil or criminal, make arrests, or aid in conserving the public peace, nor to persons traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state.
    If that is their current ordinance, it is sorely outdated and NOT compliant with state law.

  12. #12
    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Overland, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    724
    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    If that is their current ordinance, it is sorely outdated and NOT compliant with state law.
    I have seen several towns that still have this type of outdated codes and have contacted the state about this. The state doesn't seem to care.

    Doc

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,605
    Open Carry, with a Permit, is LEGAL in Certain Places, under M.R.So 571.030(4).

  14. #14
    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    , Missouri, USA
    Posts
    687
    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    I have seen several towns that still have this type of outdated codes and have contacted the state about this. The state doesn't seem to care.

    Doc
    The state has no dog in the fight, really, as long as none of these municipalities attempt to enforce their unlawful ordinances. If/when they show up in a state court, that is when the state will get involved.

  15. #15
    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Overland, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    724
    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    Open Carry, with a Permit, is LEGAL in Certain Places, under M.R.So 571.030(4).
    Good Day Mr Aadvark,

    Your statement seems misleading and I do not know how it applies any relevance to the topic of Arnold MO. The state law you brought up is this.

    (4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner.

    Doc

  16. #16
    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    , Missouri, USA
    Posts
    687
    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    Open Carry, with a Permit, is LEGAL in Certain Places, under M.R.So 571.030(4).
    RSMO 571.030 (4) has nothing to do with open carry or any kind of permit. 571.030 (4) is essentially Missouri's version of a "brandishing" law:

    571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:
    .
    .
    .
    (4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner; or
    If you are thinking about RSMO 571.030.4., again, it has nothing to do with open carry as far as state law is concerned. While certain political subdivisions in this state have exceptions for CCW permit holders written into their ordinances in regards to open carry, those ordinances have no bearing on how the state views the act of openly carrying a firearm. Nothing in 571.030.4. should be construed as "permission" from the State to openly carry a firearm anywhere.

  17. #17
    Regular Member usmcbess's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Labadie, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    195
    Quote Originally Posted by patriotthad View Post
    Josh,
    Welcome to the OC world. There are a few things to remember when OCing.
    #1 Do not take the gun from it's holster for any reason other than self defense.
    #2 If you are approached by police, remain as calm and cooperative as possible.
    #3 If the officer does arrest you, do not resist. If you are being arrested when there is no violation of the law, contact a lawyer asap.
    #4 Read Arnold's city ordinance on peace disturbance, weapons or any thing that MIGHT be used against you.
    I concur on all but #2. Don't cooperate with any unlawful orders! If you don't want to produce I.D. and they don't have probable cause don't produce an I.D. or otherwise identify yourself. Do not consent to unlawful searches or seizures. The fifth amendment is there for a reason. Don't say anything you don't have to.

  18. #18
    Regular Member cash50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    St. Louis
    Posts
    349

    Wink

    /\ /\ /\ /\ I think you meant the 4th Amendment...

  19. #19
    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Show Me State
    Posts
    433

    Smile

    Amendment IV

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Amendment V

    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; {nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself}, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation


    I think BOTH the fourth & fifth amendments apply to a LEO encounter,keeping your mouth shut and giving them nothing they can use against you applies to the fifth I believe.
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
    Psalm 144:2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Spfld, Mo.
    Posts
    430
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Carne View Post
    My name is josh i am 22 years old and i open carried for my first time today. Like everyone, on here i wanted to know the laws and how the leo's would react about oc. I called the police department and the officer that helped me was very friendly and honest. I asked him about the legality of carrying openly in the arnold city limits. He explained to me that it is not illegal and HE had no problem with it. He informed me that if someone called in and complained, depending on what officer showed up i could be charged with disturbing the peace.

    I found this man to be very helpful. i open carried at the gas station to fuel my car up and had no funny looks at all. I will oc more often now that i know that it is legal.

    Josh,

    Good job asking the question. But, be aware that most LE departments are completely clueless to the law as it relates to firearms. DO NOT EVER take anything you're told over the phone as fact or law, especially from a LE department or their representative(s)! Always get it in writing or ask for where you can get it in writing, that's the only way you're protected in court.

    Let me remind you of one important fact: Police officers are allowed to lie and nothing they say is admissable in court (called hearsay) unless it's recorded. This is per US Supreme Court ruling.

    If it's not in writing and you have to go to court on the matter (specifically if you practiced what you were told and it was incorrect), guess what's going to be said - I don't know what he's talking about, I never told him that, here's the law in my hands so submit it as evidence.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 02-08-2011 at 10:59 AM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Spfld, Mo.
    Posts
    430
    Quote Originally Posted by usmcbess View Post
    I concur on all but #2. Don't cooperate with any unlawful orders! If you don't want to produce I.D. and they don't have probable cause don't produce an I.D. or otherwise identify yourself. Do not consent to unlawful searches or seizures. The fifth amendment is there for a reason. Don't say anything you don't have to.

    Did you know that under the Patriot Act that LEOs can detain you (even take you to jail and hold you there) until they can positively identify you just because you refused to present ID. You can be deemed a potential terrorist threat and held without probable cause as well as for a non-specific time frame. This would be especially important to note if you're carrying a firearm. It's all how they annotate it in their report.

    Oh, and under Missouri law, if a LEO asks if you have a CCW permit (provided you're carrying), you are required by law to present it upon request. I had the habit of carrying it even if I wasn't carrying...I no longer do that just so I don't have someone try to press the issue through law interpretation that I must provide my CCW permit if asked (even if I'm not carrying). It's all how the law is interpreted.

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000121.HTM

    Ii was shocked when I found this out myeslf and even wrote a Masters level paper on the Patriot Act. Trust me, what can be done under the PA is absolutely frightening. Funny how they can treat Americans like this while ignoring those entering illegally as well as those with ties to terrorist Nations.


    Read Richieg's last statement, it's very valuable!
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 02-08-2011 at 11:28 AM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Spfld, Mo.
    Posts
    430
    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    Open Carry, with a Permit, is LEGAL in Certain Places, under M.R.So 571.030(4).
    Let's clarify this a bit. That statute DOES NOT cover open carry. It stresses concealed carry within the statute. One must refer to the state statute that says: Municipalities have the authority to regulate open carry, provided they are in compliance with.....

    So, if a municipality says you can open carry WITH a concealed carry permit, then yes 571.030.4 would apply. Otherwise none of the concealed carry protections apply. This is espcecially important to understand when you look at 1 major protection in 571.107.2 Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises.

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000107.HTM

    Argue it all you like, but the CCW statute (571.107.1) clearly states: may carry a concealed firearm on or about his person. Nowhere in that section does it say open carry, it specifically says "concealed". I approved when it was introduced and said: concealable firearm on or about the person....but now I don't care for the language. Well, that and one statute says "weapon" another statute says "firearm".

    As Doc and OC for ME keep hammering, this is EXACTLY why lawful open carry needs to have more protections and preemption. But, you had better expect a mandatory training requirement if you get preemption. Don't be surprised if an Open Carry permit becomes a requirement to illustrate you've met State minimum standards for training. Personally, if that happens the best option is to just tell folks to sit through the classroom portion of the CCW class so they get all the same legal-ease that a CCW permit requires PLUS it means that if they so choose to get a permit later they've already sat through the classroom and can just take the range with the same instructor; if they don't they'll be forced to sit through an entire class all over again. That's win-win, especially if we consider what has happened statistically to hunting related injuries since the requirement of a Hunter Ed course became law.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 02-08-2011 at 11:32 AM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Imperial, Missouri.
    Posts
    105
    I found this on Municode.com about Arnold ordinance. My question is does this mean its legal to open carry? I'm reading sub section A & C..

    Arnold Municode.com

    Sec. 17-31. Firearms in city buildings.

    (a) No person who has been issued a concealed carry endorsement by the Missouri Director of Revenue pursuant to RSMo 571.101--571.121, or who has been issued a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state, shall by authority of that endorsement or permit, be allowed to carry a concealed firearm or to openly carry a firearm in any building or portion of a building owned, leased or controlled by the city.

    (b) Signs shall be posted at each entrance of a building entirely owned, leased or controlled by the city stating that carrying of firearms is prohibited. Where the city owns, leases or controls only a portion of a building, signs shall be posted at each entrance to that portion of the building stating that carrying of firearms is prohibited.

    (c) This section shall not apply to buildings used for public housing by private persons, highways or rest areas, firing ranges, or private dwellings owned, leased or controlled by the city.

    (d) Any person violating this section may be denied entrance to the building or ordered to leave the building. Any city employee violating this section may be disciplined. No other penalty shall be imposed for a violation of this section.

    (e) No person who has been issued a certificate of qualification which allows the person to carry a concealed firearm before the director of revenue.
    (Ord. No. 2.47 (Bill No. 2293), 1, 2-28-08)
    Last edited by jad316; 02-09-2011 at 09:45 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Show Me State
    Posts
    433
    If I understand what I'm reading,you cant carry,concealed or open, in any building leased or owned be the city.Then it also states that that building,or portion owned or leased by the city, SHALL have a sign posted at each entrance of the building.So if theres not a sign posted,I'm thinking you can carry open,in that building, in Arnold,if its a city owned building it SHAll,which means MUST be posted.Thats no different tha any other business posting no firearm signs on their doors.But other than that I'm not seeing anything that says you cant opencarry a firearm in Arnold.
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
    Psalm 144:2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    613
    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    Did you know that under the Patriot Act that LEOs can detain you (even take you to jail and hold you there) until they can positively identify you just because you refused to present ID. You can be deemed a potential terrorist threat and held without probable cause as well as for a non-specific time frame. This would be especially important to note if you're carrying a firearm. It's all how they annotate it in their report.

    Oh, and under Missouri law, if a LEO asks if you have a CCW permit (provided you're carrying), you are required by law to present it upon request. I had the habit of carrying it even if I wasn't carrying...I no longer do that just so I don't have someone try to press the issue through law interpretation that I must provide my CCW permit if asked (even if I'm not carrying). It's all how the law is interpreted.

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000121.HTM

    Ii was shocked when I found this out myeslf and even wrote a Masters level paper on the Patriot Act. Trust me, what can be done under the PA is absolutely frightening. Funny how they can treat Americans like this while ignoring those entering illegally as well as those with ties to terrorist Nations.


    Read Richieg's last statement, it's very valuable!
    But the Patriot Act may die in this session of Congress... keep your fingers crossed!!!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •