open carry in arnold. i called the police department.

usmcbess said:

I concur on all but #2. Don't cooperate with any unlawful orders! If you don't want to produce I.D. and they don't have probable cause don't produce an I.D. or otherwise identify yourself. Do not consent to unlawful searches or seizures. The fifth amendment is there for a reason. Don't say anything you don't have to.

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Did you know that under the Patriot Act that LEOs can detain you (even take you to jail and hold you there) until they can positively identify you just because you refused to present ID. You can be deemed a potential terrorist threat and held without probable cause as well as for a non-specific time frame. This would be especially important to note if you're carrying a firearm. It's all how they annotate it in their report.

Oh, and under Missouri law, if a LEO asks if you have a CCW permit (provided you're carrying), you are required by law to present it upon request. I had the habit of carrying it even if I wasn't carrying...I no longer do that just so I don't have someone try to press the issue through law interpretation that I must provide my CCW permit if asked (even if I'm not carrying). It's all how the law is interpreted.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000121.HTM

Ii was shocked when I found this out myeslf and even wrote a Masters level paper on the Patriot Act. Trust me, what can be done under the PA is absolutely frightening. Funny how they can treat Americans like this while ignoring those entering illegally as well as those with ties to terrorist Nations.


Read Richieg's last statement, it's very valuable!

aadvark said:

Open Carry, with a Permit, is LEGAL in Certain Places, under M.R.So 571.030(4).

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Let's clarify this a bit. That statute DOES NOT cover open carry. It stresses concealed carry within the statute. One must refer to the state statute that says: Municipalities have the authority to regulate open carry, provided they are in compliance with.....

So, if a municipality says you can open carry WITH a concealed carry permit, then yes 571.030.4 would apply. Otherwise none of the concealed carry protections apply. This is espcecially important to understand when you look at 1 major protection in 571.107.2 Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000107.HTM

Argue it all you like, but the CCW statute (571.107.1) clearly states: may carry a concealed firearm on or about his person. Nowhere in that section does it say open carry, it specifically says "concealed". I approved when it was introduced and said: concealable firearm on or about the person....but now I don't care for the language. Well, that and one statute says "weapon" another statute says "firearm".

As Doc and OC for ME keep hammering, this is EXACTLY why lawful open carry needs to have more protections and preemption. But, you had better expect a mandatory training requirement if you get preemption. Don't be surprised if an Open Carry permit becomes a requirement to illustrate you've met State minimum standards for training. Personally, if that happens the best option is to just tell folks to sit through the classroom portion of the CCW class so they get all the same legal-ease that a CCW permit requires PLUS it means that if they so choose to get a permit later they've already sat through the classroom and can just take the range with the same instructor; if they don't they'll be forced to sit through an entire class all over again. That's win-win, especially if we consider what has happened statistically to hunting related injuries since the requirement of a Hunter Ed course became law.

I found this on Municode.com about Arnold ordinance. My question is does this mean its legal to open carry? I'm reading sub section A & C..

Arnold Municode.com

Sec. 17-31. Firearms in city buildings.

(a) No person who has been issued a concealed carry endorsement by the Missouri Director of Revenue pursuant to RSMo §§ 571.101--571.121, or who has been issued a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state, shall by authority of that endorsement or permit, be allowed to carry a concealed firearm or to openly carry a firearm in any building or portion of a building owned, leased or controlled by the city.

(b) Signs shall be posted at each entrance of a building entirely owned, leased or controlled by the city stating that carrying of firearms is prohibited. Where the city owns, leases or controls only a portion of a building, signs shall be posted at each entrance to that portion of the building stating that carrying of firearms is prohibited.

(c) This section shall not apply to buildings used for public housing by private persons, highways or rest areas, firing ranges, or private dwellings owned, leased or controlled by the city.

(d) Any person violating this section may be denied entrance to the building or ordered to leave the building. Any city employee violating this section may be disciplined. No other penalty shall be imposed for a violation of this section.

(e) No person who has been issued a certificate of qualification which allows the person to carry a concealed firearm before the director of revenue.
(Ord. No. 2.47 (Bill No. 2293), § 1, 2-28-08)

If I understand what I'm reading,you cant carry,concealed or open, in any building leased or owned be the city.Then it also states that that building,or portion owned or leased by the city, SHALL have a sign posted at each entrance of the building.So if theres not a sign posted,I'm thinking you can carry open,in that building, in Arnold,if its a city owned building it SHAll,which means MUST be posted.Thats no different tha any other business posting no firearm signs on their doors.But other than that I'm not seeing anything that says you cant opencarry a firearm in Arnold.

REALteach4u said:

Did you know that under the Patriot Act that LEOs can detain you (even take you to jail and hold you there) until they can positively identify you just because you refused to present ID. You can be deemed a potential terrorist threat and held without probable cause as well as for a non-specific time frame. This would be especially important to note if you're carrying a firearm. It's all how they annotate it in their report.

Oh, and under Missouri law, if a LEO asks if you have a CCW permit (provided you're carrying), you are required by law to present it upon request. I had the habit of carrying it even if I wasn't carrying...I no longer do that just so I don't have someone try to press the issue through law interpretation that I must provide my CCW permit if asked (even if I'm not carrying). It's all how the law is interpreted.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000121.HTM

Ii was shocked when I found this out myeslf and even wrote a Masters level paper on the Patriot Act. Trust me, what can be done under the PA is absolutely frightening. Funny how they can treat Americans like this while ignoring those entering illegally as well as those with ties to terrorist Nations.


Read Richieg's last statement, it's very valuable!

Click to expand...

But the Patriot Act may die in this session of Congress... keep your fingers crossed!!!

Richieg150 said:

If I understand what I'm reading,you cant carry,concealed or open, in any building leased or owned be the city.Then it also states that that building,or portion owned or leased by the city, SHALL have a sign posted at each entrance of the building.So if theres not a sign posted,I'm thinking you can carry open,in that building, in Arnold,if its a city owned building it SHAll,which means MUST be posted.Thats no different tha any other business posting no firearm signs on their doors.But other than that I'm not seeing anything that says you cant opencarry a firearm in Arnold.

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The ONLY thing that can happen is you can be asked to leave. The ordinance specifically limits the penalty for violation of this section of code. You cannot be arrested or charged for a crime just for carrying into the building. But if you are asked to leave and don't, that may be something different.

(d) Any person violating this section may be denied entrance to the building or ordered to leave the building. Any city employee violating this section may be disciplined. No other penalty shall be imposed for a violation of this section.

"No other penalty" so you can walk in. Just expect that they will ask you to leave. And have a copy of this code with you.

usmcbess said:

I concur on all but #2. Don't cooperate with any unlawful orders! If you don't want to produce I.D. and they don't have probable cause don't produce an I.D. or otherwise identify yourself. Do not consent to unlawful searches or seizures. The fifth amendment is there for a reason. Don't say anything you don't have to.

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cash50 said:

/\ /\ /\ /\ I think you meant the 4th Amendment...

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He knew of what he spoke.

Josh Carne said:

He informed me that if someone called in and complained, depending on what officer showed up i could be charged with disturbing the peace.

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I would take issue with this, their officers all have the same SOP, or it's a training problem they need to address.