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Thread: ok is this guy on here? orem man with open carry at mall.

  1. #1
    Regular Member yo101jimmy's Avatar
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    ok is this guy on here? orem man with open carry at mall.

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=14078120

    I saw this and well feel personally this was the wrong way to show our rights and with what we are trying to get passed this year. BAD CALL! its been a while for me to be on here but I wanted to read about this and no one has posted it so here is the start to the post.

    I have exercised my rights I know we all have but, its baby steps to get everyone back knowing thats its ok to open carry firearms in Utah.

    I hope to hear from Jensen on this post.

  2. #2
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    I agree that this person may have possibly gone to far with trying to excercise his rights. We have to think about how people will react to us carrying a firearm in the open. I have opened carried from Orem to Ogden area where I live now. I think that carrying a AR type rifle could possible push things over the edge and hurt what we are tying to do. Do I think that we should be able to do what that man did, yes I do, but the leos and people in our communites may not be prepared for that yet.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Well I don't think he should have been on private property...but the incident certainly isn't a Disorderly Conduct. Gotta give him props for guts and initiative. Regardless of opinions on the issue. Repeated acts like that will begin to desensitize people.
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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Carrying the Rifle was a little overboard even for me.
    Zach
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    Openly Carrying a Loaded Rifle in a Mall is PERFECTLY LEGAL in Utah, and we SHOULD Support His Actions!

    The Law is THE LAW, NOT Personnal Opinions!

    What Utah NEEDS to do is Enact a Defensive Display Law, similiar to what Arizona has done.
    Last edited by aadvark; 01-21-2011 at 11:29 AM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member CenTex's Avatar
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    This is the third encounter of this man with police doing the same thing. They should know by now who he is and that upon seeing him, they could handle the situation differently. They choose to treat him as a criminal: hence, the handcuffs. They said he was not breaking any law. That's the third time they knew he was not breaking any law. Then why harass him and cuff him?

    The LE could ask any caller with MWAG call to ask what the person is doing. If he is doing nothing illegal, the LE could inform the caller that the person is not breaking any law.

    It is not an assault rifle. Those are illegal. He obviously would have been arrested if the police "knew" it was an assault rifle. It is unconscionable for the LE to call it an assault rifle; it only makes the public more apprehensive. It is my belief the LE and especially the media use that term to make the public more afraid and get them to support legislation against OC.

    If you don't like carrying a rifle while OCing, then don't. It is not illegal to do so anymore than it is illegal for you to OC a pistol or revolver.

    I am not advocating carrying long arms. I am advocating equality. You OC the way you want, and let others OC the way they want. The aim is to get the public used to seeing law-abiding citizens carrying firearms.

    I am for police encounters where the LE respect the rights of the OCer. The public can see the interaction, and when the public see the police release the OCer and let him/her go on his/her way, the public begin to see it is legal. Apprehension begins to subside. We have two main problems, LE that don't give one moments hesitation about walking all over our rights and the the lying, left-wing, socialists media. The sheeple follow them over the cliff.
    Last edited by CenTex; 01-21-2011 at 11:50 AM.
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    Regular Member Brimstone's Avatar
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    How do you prosecute someone for disorderly conduct when they are quietly walking around obeying the law? What if a large black man was walking around the mall and several people called and said they were frightened and scared? Could he be prosecuted for disorderly conduct? That just seems like the police harassing they guy because they don't like what he did.

    I understand what the guy was trying to do. I really do support his intentions, but I think this is more likely to have negative repercussions than positive ones. You need to get people used to seeing citizens open carrying handguns before bringing rifles into the mix. At first I actually thought the guy was more likely to be an anti-open carry advocate trying to show why the law was bad and that some limits need to be set.

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    So called Assault Rifles are NOT Illegal, be it 10 Round Clips or 100 Round Barrel Magazines..., well they are NOT Illegal as of Press Time of this Post.

    The Federal Government is Aspiring to Reinstate The Assualt Weapons Ban that began during Clinton's Administration and Ended under Bush's Administration.

    The ATF is already trying to Enforce their own Rule, but it was Blocked.

  9. #9
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yo101jimmy View Post
    I hope to hear from Jensen on this post.
    Now is not the right time, nor is University Mall the right place. Do I support Mr. Taylor's actions? ABSOLUTELY!
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    ????

    It's been so long since I logged in, I had to re-register--
    I'm soooo proud of this guy!!!
    Intelligent, impressive, Good head on his shoulders!

    GOOD LORD!


  11. #11
    Regular Member UtahRSO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brimstone View Post
    I understand what the guy was trying to do.
    I DON'T understand what he was trying to do. When I'm out and about, the gun I carry is loaded. My main reason for carrying is for protection of me and mine, and secondarily to help educate the public. I would still be legal open carrying with the magazine full and the chamber empty (as per the Utah version of unloaded).

    This guy was carrying a rifle and handgun with no ammo anywhere on his person. Yes, legal (as far as the Utah firearms laws are concerned), but where's the protection in that? His ONLY motive seems to be to be obnoxious enough to get himself stopped by a LEO and stir the pot.

    We're on the verge of (hopefully) getting non-permit concealed and open carry in Utah, and his actions are not helping to further that agenda. In addition, he's been charged with disorderly conduct. I don't think he can be convicted of that, but if he is, or if the upcoming session of the legislature gets agitated enough, there could be a setback there too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jensen View Post
    Now is not the right time, nor is University Mall the right place. Do I support Mr. Taylor's actions? ABSOLUTELY!
    I do support Mr Taylors actions. We all need to just be careful in where and how we excerecise rights. We want to make things better not scare the public or create bad relations with the public.

  13. #13
    Regular Member k31's Avatar
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    i disagree with what that did simply because it isnt necessary
    it hasnt been all that long since the arizona thing happened the genral public is scared of firearms plain and simple. to go walking around with what 50% of the people would think is a machine gun while the still have a shooting fresh on their mind was un called for and iresponsible
    we as gun owners need to convey a message of safty and security not be toting around half of our arsinal down the street or at a mall.
    now would be a good time to find away to clean up the black eye we have and possibly make a statement to prove that the rest of us that carry do it with respect to others and sensibility. i think instead of trying to make a huge statement like that we need to focus more or smaller things like soccer games or tee ball. causual and friendly encounters that allow people to be relaxed and open
    i cary and would still eyeball this guy like a hawk if i had seen him struting around the university mall
    "best shooting gun is the gun you shoot best" tony mar

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    This man needs to be careful. LEO's are taught to be uncomfortable around firearms that are not held my LEO's.

    Yes, he is within the law, and was just walking around, but come on, let's get real here people.

    The charges won't stick.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    The Law is THE LAW, NOT Personnal Opinions!
    +1
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    Regular Member k31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post

    The Law is THE LAW, NOT Personnal Opinions!

    .
    will we all say the same thing when our rights and freedoms (even the ones that let us carry) are taken and we are unjustly subject to laws that go against the fundamentals of the constitution ?
    well wouldnt that be a kick in the pants to have have to stand there while you are getting robbed cause you have no way to defend your self or be arrested for trying to protect your self ( kinda happens now!!) all because a few idiots wanted to push their (every one elses) freedoms to an extreme and boldly display his/her single mindedness??? "DONT TREAD ON MY RIGHTS". dont loose them for me.
    how many times did martin Luther king where shirts that say "down with whitey" ??? he could have it would have been within his rights BUT he used common sense. what about Gandhi or the apartheid??
    this whole game with politics isnt even at half time yet so theres no point to get so desperate that you could help the other team out all for a day or two of publicity, or to "help get the word out"
    if you want to help do some thing constructive like make stickers, talk to people, organize a news letter or post fliers at the grocery for open carriers party at a public park. organize a march or a parade.
    please dont tote your guns around in a way that makes you look like a drunk or high lunatic. you can get plastered with all your freinds and have a puking contest in the front yard too but why ????? "cause i can" would be the same response that an immature and unintellectual teenager would give for the same two questions.
    "best shooting gun is the gun you shoot best" tony mar

  17. #17
    Regular Member yo101jimmy's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    Openly Carrying a Loaded Rifle in a Mall is PERFECTLY LEGAL in Utah, and we SHOULD Support His Actions!

    The Law is THE LAW, NOT Personnal Opinions!

    What Utah NEEDS to do is Enact a Defensive Display Law, similiar to what Arizona has done.

    Law yeah, but agreeing with Jensen not the time. You are on the right track with Utah needing to be on lines with Arizona but we wont get there with jumps like this. Keep it cool like we and keep doing what we have been doing. I would like to know why caring any rife in public settings like that is needed. other than being pushy, small arms yes large arms a bit over kill I disagree with any charges on this man and disagree with his actions.

  18. #18
    Regular Member yo101jimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jensen View Post
    Now is not the right time, nor is University Mall the right place. Do I support Mr. Taylor's actions? ABSOLUTELY!
    I would think you would disagree with these actions.
    ”The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world… The first step – in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come – is to teach men to shoot!”
    ~President Theodore Roosevelt

  19. #19
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yo101jimmy View Post
    I would think you would disagree with these actions.
    I think he could have been a bit more mindful of the time and location of his actions, but that is the limit of criticism he'll receive from me.

    ...unless he's an "anti" that did this to set a precedent with a disorderly conduct charge, then he might deserve a kick in the nuts. I doubt this is the case.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    many people do not realize that what this man did , did not break any laws... they saw him carrying and called the police... the police reacted poorly, they cuffed and embarrassed the man, then let him go without charge. this in itself is a statement that people should take note of.

    he broke no law!

    like what he did, like his motives or not... the message is getting out there.

    hopefully people will realize and react correctly to support rights rather than further try to restrict them...but in today's political climate..who knows

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    We are trying to get the public used to citizens openly bearing 'side arms' not rifles. While We the People are the legitimate homeland security force, the sheep are not yet ready to see what is common in places like Israel. We still have a lot of desensitizing to do before rifle carry could be considered 'ok'.

    That said, I have seen others openly carrying AR's while dressed in suit and tie... really makes the sheep go lol
    Last edited by AFPVet; 01-22-2011 at 01:44 AM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member k31's Avatar
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    how else is there to react ??? even from an open carry point of view a man with what looks to be a loaded assault rifle steps into the mall or even just down the street, you dont question his motives? we are not trying to desensitize the public to guns
    we are trying to help people remember what their rights are and that guns are an option to protect your self. a man with an assault rifle in a crowded place should send up a red flag. people have no idea what his intentions were or if it was loaded they should be afraid. even if they are carrying they shouldn't trust some guy who randomly parks his car and throws an ar on his back and starts heading to the mall. if i remember right just a few years ago utah had a mall shooting. open carry should be done in a way that it doesnt cause alarm (hard to do but we will get there).
    ive said enough for one thread and i promise im off my soap dish now
    "best shooting gun is the gun you shoot best" tony mar

  23. #23
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Is what he did legal absolutely

    His timing was off and his location he picked was off.

    Is a disorderly conduct charge appropriate for the actions he took No

    I support his rights to bear arms but feel it could have been done differently and still have the desired effect.

    I hope this charge is dropped and the owner educated.

    Maybe we could extend a greeting to join the group ?
    Zach
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jensen View Post
    I think he could have been a bit more mindful of the time and location of his actions, but that is the limit of criticism he'll receive from me.

    ...unless he's an "anti" that did this to set a precedent with a disorderly conduct charge, then he might deserve a kick in the nuts. I doubt this is the case.
    One thing I learned a few years ago in H. L. Richardson's class on "confrontational politics" is that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter who it was that voted against you, or why they voted against you, all that matters is the vote. If a so-called friend votes against a good bill or for a bad bill, it doesn't really matter why. His vote counts the same regardless of motivation. If one of your opponents votes with you--voting for a good bill or against a bad bill--for all the wrong reasons, who cares? His vote counts the same as if he voted for all the right reasons.

    I'll take this one step further and say that when an opponent does something to harm your cause it is to be expected. But when an ally, a supposed friend, does something to hurt your cause it just that much worse. It is a bit like being stabbed in the back.

    If this guy is an anti or otherwise deliberately trying to make it more difficult to pass some very good, pro-RKBA bills this year, he could not have picked a better way to go about harming our cause.

    His conduct has exactly that same effect even if he is a friend. In fact, were he an anti, and we could somehow demonstrate that to the legislature, his conduct would be less damaging than if is really a pro-RKBA supporter.

    What he did was legal (so long as he has not been previously asked to stay off the private property in question). I have to support the legality of it.

    But I do not support his choice of how to go about doing it.

    The black, military style, scary looking carbine was not slung across his back innocuously, but was carried across his chest in a full battle/combat ready sling.

    The handgun was not properly hostered near as I can tell but was also hanging from some kind of sling.

    He was not traveling from one place to another on foot, but was loitering about semi randomly.

    He was not carrying the firearms in any fashion usable for self defense. Indeed, anyone or two guys with a mind to do so could have relieved him of those nice guns and placed them into circulation in the criminal market. Legalities aside, it is grossly irresponsible to make it easy for criminals to get their hands on your firearms. It is legal to leave a gun sitting on the dash of your car. It is stupid and irresponsible to do so. Similarly, I contend that while it is legal to walk around showcasing a couple of expensive guns, it stupid to do so with no means of keeping those guns from falling into criminal hands.

    If he was attempting to make some political statement, he failed miserably. He had no signs, no fliers or leaflets or pamphlets. He wasn't even wearing a T-Shirt with any message on it.

    His conduct easily cost us a couple of votes on each of several, very important, pro-RKBA bills that are being run this session.

    And from what has been reported of his financial situation, I highly doubt he has an attorney which means his odds of winning anything in court are between slim and none. Which means he hands us all (and the UoU) a nice little precedence (not a legally binding precedence as it will be in city court most likely), but a precedence nonetheless that otherwise lawfully OCing a gun can be subject to a disorderly conduct charge.

    We may well have to support his legal right to be jack hat and pin head. But let's be clear about the fact that he is, actually, a pin headed jack hat. When the old Jewish man sent a check to the ACLU to support their efforts to defend the first amendment rights of the neo-Nazis to march in Skoke he did not praise the conduct of the Nazis. His note was, "Let the ba__ards have their march. Let everyone see what they really stand for."

    I might do likewise if there were any real risk of offensive, but peaceful demonstrators outside Temple Square being arrested merely for being offensive. (I won't defend the use of "fighting words", but I recognize the right of people to peacefully offend me.) "Let the A-wipes demonstrate. Let the world see how much hate they really have."

    So the best I'm going to do for this guy is say something like, "The law allows it; only an offensive pin head would do this just to make a point."

    And frankly, given the totality of the situation, combat sling in front, more or less loitering on private property where he was not welcome, etc, I might just be willing to see the legal line be drawn there.

    If you want to OC a properly holstered gun, great. But I'm not going to bend over backward to defend any "right" to walk around with a gun in hand, finger on trigger. And this guy was carrying his carbine pretty much in hand, finger near trigger. I think it may well have crossed the line from merely "offensive" to actually threatening or at least "disorderly."

    Anyway, before calling your legislators to ask their support for any pro-RKBA bills this year, I hope y'all think for a moment about how you are going to handle the very likely questions regarding this guy's conduct. Do you tell your legislator that you think what the guy did is perfectly ok and we should encourage others to do likewise? Or, do you tell him that you recognize how offensive and off putting the conduct was, but just like some first amendment issues, these are the cases that test our resolve to support the bill of rights?

    OJ walked on two murders. I will defend the 4th and 5th amendments. I will NOT defend what OJ did. I will hold OJ up as one of the costs of living in a free society. The demonstrators around temple square or at military funerals or showing neo-nazi signs are some other costs of living in a free society. Maybe a pin head in Orem with a couple of unloaded guns is another such cost. Or, maybe not. Maybe his conduct does cross a legal line.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 01-22-2011 at 06:46 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post

    The black, military style, scary looking carbine was not slung across his back innocuously, but was carried across his chest in a full battle/combat ready sling.

    Charles
    The individual should have slung across his back with the rifle muzzle down. Pistols are to be secured in proper holsters. I also agree that he should have worn some kind of identification which states that he is merely exercising his rights—or he could have dressed up in professional attire.

    Furthermore, desensitizing the public to firearms is exercising the right. Without this approach, people will continue to think that it is illegal have firearms.

    Conversely, you play a game of risk when doing this since it can be considered disorderly—by causing panic.
    Last edited by AFPVet; 01-22-2011 at 04:01 PM.

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