P4P rules VCDL AGAIN this Year!

grylnsmn said:

You would sacrifice the certain good (opening the door for concealed carry) because it isn't perfect (full constitutional carry), even if the good gives more time to get the supporters for the perfect.

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Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Now,if Eve hadn't eaten that damn apple, the hunting would be better.
Moral of the story. Don't Fork with Virginians right..note the syntax, "RIGHT" to carry a gun.

I really want to give NOVA (Real Estate not the person) to Mary Land. Yall are a pain in the butt!

peter nap said:

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Now,if Eve hadn't eaten that damn apple, the hunting would be better.
Moral of the story. Don't Fork with Virginians right..note the syntax, "RIGHT" to carry a gun.

I really want to give NOVA (Real Estate not the person) to Mary Land. Yall are a pain in the butt!

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Y'know, some of us are trying to change that. Personally, I'd love to move out west, closer to my family. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in the DC area for at least another 4-5 years for professional reasons. Because of that, I have to deal with how things are right now.

In the past few years, I've helped convince quite a few people that carrying a firearm is not extremist or crazy. I've invited people to go shooting (including my Maryland-born wife, on our first date), and helped them realize that guns, in and of themselves, aren't evil or to be feared. I've advocated and defended OC with them, as well as pointed them in the direction of good resources (including this site) for learning more. Just yesterday, I had a friend at church asking me for more information.

But ultimately it's a process to get people to change. If all we have to do is say "it's a right", then why is it such a struggle each year to get a sponsor for gun-friendly legislation, and then to get the votes to pass it? The path to ultimate victory isn't based in demanding everything at once, and refusing anything short of perfection. Victory will only be reached by changing hearts and minds on the subject, to help others understand why they need to respect and help protect our rights.

Northern Virginia is as much a part of the Commonwealth as anywhere else. If we want to make progress, we need to help educate and encourage people to change their minds. A large part of that is taking the incremental, "boiling frog" approach.

I don't have time for any more of your nonsense!
Please, go home and leave my state alone.

You know we hear people spout the line that permits and concealed carry make people more comfortable with others having a gun around. I personally don't see how it could. If your gun is carried concealed how on earth are people going to know you've got a gun to begin with? How you normalize something that you can't see or desensitize people to the presence of something that they cannot detect is a puzzle. If I can see something then I have a chance to observe it, process the situation and come to the conclusion that it doesn't bother me just as I'm sure many Virginians did when there was no prohibition on OC in places serving alcohol, but a prohibition on concealed guns was in effect. If you're going to go for the incremental approach remove restrictions from open carry first so people get used to seeing a sidearm carried in a particular situation and become comfortable with it in practice, such that when the discussion comes up for having people hide away their guns they are already comfortable that regular people carry guns and may hide them and don't think that discreetly carried guns are just the purview of criminals and thugs.

jmelvin said:

You know we hear people spout the line that permits and concealed carry make people more comfortable with others having a gun around. I personally don't see how it could. If your gun is carried concealed how on earth are people going to know you've got a gun to begin with? How you normalize something that you can't see or desensitize people to the presence of something that they cannot detect is a puzzle. If I can see something then I have a chance to observe it, process the situation and come to the conclusion that it doesn't bother me just as I'm sure many Virginians did when there was no prohibition on OC in places serving alcohol, but a prohibition on concealed guns was in effect. If you're going to go for the incremental approach remove restrictions from open carry first so people get used to seeing a sidearm carried in a particular situation and become comfortable with it in practice, such that when the discussion comes up for having people hide away their guns they are already comfortable that regular people carry guns and may hide them and don't think that discreetly carried guns are just the purview of criminals and thugs.

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It's more in the sense that it illustrates that they don't have anything to worry about, because they didn't feel nervous when someone was already carrying around them.

As an example, on Saturday, I went with my Bishop to visit someone at Inova Fairfax Hospital. (A Bishop is the leader of a LDS congregation.) As we were entering the building, I saw the signs prohibiting carry, and even though I had already disarmed before we left his house, I reflexively put my hand to my side to verify that I was not going to violate the law by carrying where it was posted.

He saw my motion, and asked me about it, and so I explained that I am usually armed whenever I am legally allowed to be. (I usually go with OC, but at church-related activities I tend to keep it concealed because I am not there to make a political statement and do not want to be perceived as doing so.) He was momentarily surprised by that revelation, but afterwards had some additional questions for me as we were leaving. By realizing that there are already people who carry around him without a problem, it helps make him more at ease with the idea of more people (or even everyone) around him carrying.

It's similar to one of the arguments used in support of the restaurant bill last year. Open carry was already legal, but many people didn't realize that people were already legally able to carry in restaurants. Once they realized that it was already happening with OC, many of the arguments against allowing CC were severely weakened.

peter nap said:

I don't have time for any more of your nonsense!
Please, go home and leave my state alone.

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It's my state, too. I've lived most of my life in Virginia (since the first grade), and I'm actively trying to make it a better place. I'm sorry if you feel the need to reject someone who shares your goals, but disagrees with some of your methods.

jmelvin said:

You know we hear people spout the line that permits and concealed carry make people more comfortable with others having a gun around. I personally don't see how it could. If your gun is carried concealed how on earth are people going to know you've got a gun to begin with?

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Would you like to come by my house the next my mother-in-law is over?

I OC around her and she'd not "comfortable" being around guns. I CC and she's none the wiser.

Perception? Absolutely. It's not the gun. It is the projection of an irrational fear on an inanimate object. Out of sight; out of mind.

wylde007 said:

Would you like to come by my house the next my mother-in-law is over?

I OC around her and she'd not "comfortable" being around guns. I CC and she's none the wiser.

Perception? Absolutely. It's not the gun. It is the projection of an irrational fear on an inanimate object. Out of sight; out of mind.

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You proved my point. She'll never have the chance to get comfortable around something she has no idea is even present. You keeping it hidden while in your own home might tend to confirm the thought that the gun is nasty, something to be feared and something to be ashamed of.

I don't know about Alaska and Vermont, but ask an Arizonan. People carrying guns in the open is as normal as mom's apple pie. People get comfortable with guns being worn openly by good people and eventually become comfortable that those same good people can carry them hidden. I don't think that the acceptance of unlicensed CC is at all disconnected from unlicensed OC being normalized for so long.

jmelvin said:

You proved my point. She'll never have the chance to get comfortable around something she has no idea is even present. You keeping it hidden while in your own home might tend to confirm the thought that the gun is nasty, something to be feared and something to be ashamed of.

I don't know about Alaska and Vermont, but ask an Arizonan. People carrying guns in the open is as normal as mom's apple pie. People get comfortable with guns being worn openly by good people and eventually become comfortable that those same good people can carry them hidden. I don't think that the acceptance of unlicensed CC is at all disconnected from unlicensed OC being normalized for so long.

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I never claimed that OC doesn't play a role. I only said that licensed CC also helps in normalizing carry. The most effective route is a combination of the two, until such time as you have gained enough support for unlicensed CC.

Just as in my discussion with my Bishop, when he discovered that I am usually armed, it surprised him, but then led to him asking a variety of very good questions about carrying. It opened his perspective to the fact that there are already people who carry around him whether he knows it or not, and that helps towards normalizing attitudes towards all forms of carry.

grylnsmn said:

I never claimed that OC doesn't play a role. I only said that licensed CC also helps in normalizing carry. The most effective route is a combination of the two, until such time as you have gained enough support for unlicensed CC.

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It could only possibly help in normalizing it to those already accepting of carry as a way of life.

Conceal carry does nothing to "normalize" the experience for others because they do not know there is a gun and, unless someone goes about with a badge or sign or something else saying "I am carrying a concealed firearm" (and thereby defeating the purpose), others will not be aware of the carry and there will be nothing to "normalize".

Permitted carry is nothing more than government exercising dominion over the citizenry, plain and simple. I could carry without one all I wanted and there is nothing anybody could do about it - unless I got caught.

Now, I am sure there are plenty of ways to get "caught" with a concealed firearm, but the likely most common situation would involve breaking some other law and having a concealed firearm found on your person as a result of an arrest search.

Permits do not make people more or less law abiding. They do not make non-carriers more or less accepting of the practice of private citizens carrying firearms. All they do is provide an avenue for law enforcement and government to monitor the law-abiding and, as I stated above, exercise dominion over them.

wylde007 said:

. All they do is provide an avenue for law enforcement and government to monitor the law-abiding and, as I stated above, exercise dominion over them.

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Amen!
Gunowner registration as opposed to gun registration.

wylde007 said:

They do not make non-carriers more or less accepting of the practice of private citizens carrying firearms.

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In my personal experience, this statement here is false.

I have had several friends who have asked me questions and changed their positions on both OC and CC as a result of discussions sparked by my getting my permit. In discussions with friends about my permit, it has helped convince several of them to take another look at their personal security, and how they would respond to a variety of potential circumstances. I have watched as their attitudes have shifted (including my own wife's attitude) as a result of them finding out when I've carried concealed when they were around.

I have a variety of reasons for concealing when I do, and those reasons justify my having a permit (because I am not willing to break the law by carrying illegally). In some cases, it is to preserve harmony within my extended family (my 70-year-old aunt is extremely anti, and I am her primary family assistance in the area). Sometimes it is because I'm choosing not to make an outright political statement (such as at the previously mentioned church activities). Occasionally it's out of convenience (wearing a coat over my gun because of bad weather).

Most of all, having my CHP allows me to decide when or if I'm going to reveal that I carry to someone. It allows me to use it as an example when I want, without having someone else force the conversation. This is especially important when in social situations where I'm meeting others for the first time, because it allows me to gauge their reactions before I bring up the subject.

Do I like having to have a CHP to conceal? Not at all. But it's what I have to work with, and so I use it as one tool among many in my attempts to convince others to support the right to carry. As I've said several times already, constitutional carry is the ideal solution, but I'm simply trying to work with what is currently available to me.

grylnsmn said:

In my personal experience, this statement here is false.

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Your opinion regarding experience with people who are personally known to you is a little disingenuous. Your friends know of your permit. They know you carry.

So?

Who PUBLICLY knows you are carrying? How does carrying concealed with (or without, for that matter) a permit increase PUBLIC awareness?

I argue that it does not. It cannot.

wylde007 said:

Your opinion regarding experience with people who are personally known to you is a little disingenuous. Your friends know of your permit. They know you carry.

So?

Who PUBLICLY knows you are carrying? How does carrying concealed with (or without, for that matter) a permit increase PUBLIC awareness?

I argue that it does not. It cannot.

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The public is made of individuals. I prefer to work more one-on-one with people, to help convince them to change their minds.

There's a time and a place for speaking to the public as a whole, and there's a time and a place for dealing with things one-on-one. We aren't limited to only taking one or the other route in working towards constitutional carry.

Most of the time, I'm OCing, not CCing. (Although with the cold in the last few weeks, I've probably CCed a bit more than OC, but the balance will shift back when it warms up.) I just prefer to choose when and where I'm making a more open and general statement, and when I'm targeting my efforts on individuals. I find it much more effective, especially in an environment like NoVa.

wylde007 said:

Your opinion regarding experience with people who are personally known to you is a little disingenuous. Your friends know of your permit. They know you carry.

So?

Who PUBLICLY knows you are carrying? How does carrying concealed with (or without, for that matter) a permit increase PUBLIC awareness?

I argue that it does not. It cannot.

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I've always considered Grapeshot the Ambassador of OC.

People know we have a gun, they aren't afraid normally, they're interested and ask questions, then go buy a gun.
[video=vimeo;13612351]http://vimeo.com/13612351[/video]

CHP Phobia

I am with grylnsmn on this topic.

I have a CHP. I prefer constitutional carry but until that is the law of VA I will have a CHP to void Federal GFSZ and other locality nonsense.

Just because someone is CC-ing doesn't mean they aren't being good OC embassadors to the public. I CC my BUG and OC my primary on my hip. I CC-only when I have to.

People can b1tch and moan about how it should be. The war isn't over and we take the battle to the enemy and inch/foot/mile at a time as we can gain it. No retreat, no surrender! Man up and fight the good fight.

As a side note for the CC-only crowd, I am sure they talk to their friends & family about their permit which does educate the public. As a matter of fact that is the exact way I learned about CHP's in VA. I am ok with someone that only wants to CC.

45acpForMe said:

Just because someone is CC-ing doesn't mean they aren't being good OC ambassadors to the public.

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I do not recall making any mention of ambassadorship.

My point is that conceal carry does not in any way effect the perception of "normalcy" of lawful firearm ownership or carry. People do not see a gun. They CANNOT be affected by that which they do not see. Period.

Are you affected by porn you have not watched? :lol:

Same general idea.

45acpForMe said:

I have a CHP. I prefer constitutional carry but until that is the law of VA I will have a CHP to void Federal GFSZ and other locality nonsense.

Just because someone is CC-ing doesn't mean they aren't being good OC embassadors to the public. I CC my BUG and OC my primary on my hip. I CC-only when I have to.

People can b1tch and moan about how it should be. The war isn't over and we take the battle to the enemy and inch/foot/mile at a time as we can gain it. No retreat, no surrender! Man up and fight the good fight.

As a side note for the CC-only crowd, I am sure they talk to their friends & family about their permit which does educate the public. As a matter of fact that is the exact way I learned about CHP's in VA. I am ok with someone that only wants to CC.

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I have a CHP. I prefer constitutional carry but until that is the law of VA I will have a CHP to void Federal GFSZ and other locality nonsense.

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We've had this discussion before and as you will recall, I have nothing against permits for people that want them.

Just because someone is CC-ing doesn't mean they aren't being good OC embassadors to the public. I CC my BUG and OC my primary on my hip

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That's absolutely true...but that's not what this discussion is about!

People can b1tch and moan about how it should be. The war isn't over and we take the battle to the enemy and inch/foot/mile at a time as we can gain it. No retreat, no surrender! Man up and fight the good fight.

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First, I don't bitch and moan about how it should be...I talk about how it is!
I have a right to carry openly and do so without any permission asked for or given.
I don't say "I wish I could"...because I do.
Yes, CHP's talk to people who then think CHP is the only way to go.

No retreat, no surrender! Man up and fight the good fight.

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And NO COMPROMISE!

I'm also OK with someone that only wants to CC, but the fight starts when he wants to be allowed something over and above simply hiding his/her gun, just because he paid his/her fifty bucks to the Clerk!

Next maybe we could get permits to allow four letter words in free speech, because they pay a fee and take the online toastmasters class.

wylde007 said:

I do not recall making any mention of ambassadorship.

My point is that conceal carry does not in any way effect the perception of "normalcy" of lawful firearm ownership or carry. People do not see a gun. They CANNOT be affected by that which they do not see. Period.

Are you affected by porn you have not watched? :lol:

Same general idea.

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I think you are falsely equating "people" with "the public".

I don't target my advocacy efforts at the public in general most of the time. Instead, I tend to target specific individuals or small groups. As a result of my permit, I have seen a lot of success in normalizing the idea of lawful firearm carry with quite a few individuals and small groups. I have even seen some of those people go on to similarly advocate for normalizing carry with other small groups or individuals.

You seem to focus your advocacy at the public in general. It's a broader, but less targeted approach, and we all know that it has seen some success as well.

I believe that there's more than enough room for both methods. There's no need to criticize anyone simply because they aren't advocating in the way that you think is best.

We share the same goals, and we are both trying to make progress towards them. There's no need for us to fight among ourselves because I focus my message towards individuals while you focus on the public at large.

grylnsmn said:

We share the same goals, and we are both trying to make progress towards them. .

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Why do you keep saying that. It isn't even remotely true!
You want to trade Virginia's heritage for your self serving, half baked, ill conceived, political wheeling and dealing.

We share nothing!