Would taking action have been justified in this situation?

I recently began pondering an event that happened at my place of work about six months ago.

I work as a cashier at a grocery store. The store doesn't have any Gun Buster signs, and I have seen one OCer inside, who was only hassled by one manager to clarify whether or not it is legal. There is nothing in our handbook about employees carrying firearms on the premises, so once I get my LCCH, I plan to begin carrying concealed while at work. Now that that has been explained, here is the situation in question.

I was working at a register when all of a sudden, by the entrance, I saw a newspaper rack go flying. Moments later, I saw my manager (a tiny guy, probably only about 130 lbs) get shoved into one of the claw machines that sits by the exit. This was followed by a bigger guy (maybe 180 lbs, had a definite weight advantage,) who proceeded to begin punching my manager. This continued for about 20 seconds before the manager began to call for help, and for someone to call the police (the sick thing is that by this time, there were maybe a dozen people gathered around just watching, but no one helping.) He continued to call for help, and the fight moved to one of the corners near the exit, where we had a stack of grill starter fluid set up as a display. The guy grabs a bottle of it and starts to try to pour it on the manager. Luckily, by this time, our security person and another person had arrived, and they tackled the guy. As it turns out, the guy was drugged up and trying to shoplift, and when the manager tried to stop him, the guy went berzerk.

As I implied in the first paragraph, I wasn't armed at the time. But since I plan on beginning to CC at work, my dilemma is this: I see a big guy attacking my manager. I am not aware that our security personnel is present at the time, so as far as I know, no one is going to come to the manager's aid. I then see the attacker start to pour a combustible fluid on my manager. Would drawing a weapon have been justified in this situation?

Any input would be appreciated.

In my opinion, yes it would be completly justifiable(SP), under self defence of self or others. My question is, if you watched this for 20 secounds, why are you complaining about the others who "just stood and watched"? I am just curious as to why you did not aid the man?
Also placing a hot round down range, with a combustable liquid at target sight..... is'nt really a good idea.

Since he was pouring lighter fluid on the guy, I would say that he was preparing to kill him and I believe deadly force would have been justified.

Thanks for the replies.

greatsimon said:

My question is, if you watched this for 20 secounds, why are you complaining about the others who "just stood and watched"? I am just curious as to why you did not aid the man?

Click to expand...

Primarily, diffusion of responsibility. Before this, I didn't know how I would react in a situation like this. Now that I know (that I freeze,) I can review my actions (since inaction is in itself an action) and figure out what I did wrong, so that in the event I am ever placed in a similar situation, I can avoid repeating said mistakes. Also, I'll technically get fired if I help somebody in this situation (which wouldn't really bother me, if I felt I took the right action,) and I'm a small person, so I doubt I would've fared much better than my manager in the brawl that took place.

Kill the sob....period. Darwins theory put to work.

Justified, yes

But would you have had a clear shot?
Groceries stores usually have people all over the place, most of them behind shelves and displays where you can't see them.

Prime said:

But would you have had a clear shot?
Groceries stores usually have people all over the place, most of them behind shelves and displays where you can't see them.

Click to expand...

I have been thinking about this, and I believe I would've been able to get a clear shot. By the time the guy started pouring the lighter fluid, the fight had moved into a corner with a solid wall, and nobody on the other side. All I would've had to do would've been to walk in front of the bystanders, since they were giving the fight a wide berth.

Naga said:

Thanks for the replies.



Primarily, diffusion of responsibility. Before this, I didn't know how I would react in a situation like this. Now that I know (that I freeze,) I can review my actions (since inaction is in itself an action) and figure out what I did wrong, so that in the event I am ever placed in a similar situation, I can avoid repeating said mistakes. Also, I'll technically get fired if I help somebody in this situation (which wouldn't really bother me, if I felt I took the right action,) and I'm a small person, so I doubt I would've fared much better than my manager in the brawl that took place.

Click to expand...

I would highly advise any person who is going to carry to attend GOOD classes as well as pick up good videos like the one below and practice as much as you can at the range. As for the DVD below it is a must own in my book and it is a great instructional video.

Magpul Dynamics - Art of the Dynamic Handgun Its 4 dvds and if i remember about 6 hours of drills, it brings to light a lot better techniques to use your firearm. Hands down 5 out of 5.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTr8xvkUWp4


Reality Check pt1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0J1sJuOMoE&feature=related

Reality Check pt2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf9_O2IM3VY&feature=related

Befoe CCing at your work site, you better talk to you manager. Get his approval, first. He will want to get hold of his District Manager to inquire what the policy is of CCing by employees. If you don't get approval, you could be looking at being fired if your CCing is ever revealed.

baldp8 said:

Since he was pouring lighter fluid on the guy, I would say that he was preparing to kill him and I believe deadly force would have been justified.

Click to expand...

The OP did not say the man was pouring lighter fluid onto the manager, he said that he was "trying" to start pouring lighter fluid onto the manager. There is a difference. It may have been only a threat. If he lived to see trial, it would be his word against the OP's as to his intent. You cannot read minds, can you Naga? An LE might get away by shooting him, but I am not sure that the court would be so easy with Naga, "especially" if he did not have permission to CC at work. Something to consider.

As someone else has said, my opinion is worth what you paid for it.

IMHO it would have been a justified defense of others without the lighter fluid. A 50 pound weight advantage (coupled with drug use) creates a situation in which physical assault could result in "grave bodily harm and/or death."

Of course, you would have to be there to really assess the situation but from what I read here I wouldn't pull a firearm out if it was justified or not. I would slam the guy with as much speed as possible using all of my weight and probably destroy him with just that especially if its his knees that take the brunt of the force. If he isn't outright crumpled, he's going to be at a severe disadvantage from that point on and shouldn't be too much of a problem to subdue.

Like I said though, you gotta be there to really know. I just know that it would take quite a bit of convincing and fear for my own safety or those of my direct family for me to brandish the firearm that I carry and this incident doesn't seem even close to passing my own personal requirements.

This would be a matter of fact, not law, and you would stand a good chance of losing in court. Disparity of force is a tough one sometimes. But I think the little guy could make a strong affirmative defense for using deadly force. He still could lose. Your defense would be much, much weaker. If you went to help the guy and it escalated into a situation where the reasonable man would fear for death or grievous bodily harm to himself or another, that's one thing. Standing back and shooting is another. I would say you would be found guilty--assuming you killed him, of at least involuntary manslaughter, aggravated assault if you wounded him. Of course, no way of knowing what a jury would decide, but I'd bet against you. Be glad you didn't have to find out.