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Thread: Why keep a magazine in your pistol when OC'ing

  1. #1
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    Why keep a magazine in your pistol when OC'ing

    It looks bad and it makes it appear that the gun could be loaded. We all know without a magazine you can still have one in the chamber but it also puts you behind the curve if you would need to load your weapon because now you need to drop the mag. I just saw it in a video and didn't understand it.

    If it's because your trying to keep the mag well clean or just because you can I still don't think it's a good idea.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHvk0vY6fwk

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
    It looks bad and it makes it appear that the gun could be loaded. We all know without a magazine you can still have one in the chamber but it also puts you behind the curve if you would need to load your weapon because now you need to drop the mag. I just saw it in a video and didn't understand it.

    If it's because your trying to keep the mag well clean or just because you can I still don't think it's a good idea.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHvk0vY6fwk
    I think it's a bad idea not to have a magazine in your semi-auto while carrying.

    1) Deterence- With a magazine inserted, I maintain the illusion that the firearms IS loaded until police can confirm otherwise. Criminals don't know this and must assume that it is loaded and ready for use.
    2) Legality- There is nothing illegal about having an empty magazine inserted in your firearm. That being said, there is bad case law that exists in California that would lead prosecutors to conclude that a concealed magazine being an essential component to a firearm constitutes a "concealed weapon'- by having a 'completed' weapon with an empty magazine in place, you further protect yourself from other legal perils if that arguement comes into play.
    3) Logical conclusion- If having a magazine in the well of an unloaded firearm is a bad idea, then could one also conclude that if loaded open carry was generally lawful everywhere in California, that it would also be a bad idea to have a full magazine in a loaded weapon as well? The answer to me is clearly no... guns are meant to be carried and used loaded, and therefore an empyy magazine is irrelvant to how it is carried.
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    Regular Member CenTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
    It looks bad and it makes it appear that the gun could be loaded. We all know without a magazine you can still have one in the chamber but it also puts you behind the curve if you would need to load your weapon because now you need to drop the mag. I just saw it in a video and didn't understand it.

    If it's because your trying to keep the mag well clean or just because you can I still don't think it's a good idea.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHvk0vY6fwk
    No one is telling you that you need to do it. The choice is yours. ConditionThree gave you several good reasons for doing it. Keeping the magazine well clean is also a good reason. You make yourself more of a target for the BGs if they see your magazine well is empty. Having a magazine there keeps them guessing. Does he, or doesn't he? There is no doubt that eventually even the dummies will learn they are unloaded. So, what is the answer?

    Practice, practice, practice.
    Last edited by CenTex; 01-22-2011 at 06:19 PM.
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    Why keep a magazine in your pistol when OC'ing?




    Because it looks bad and it makes it appear that the gun could be loaded

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
    It looks bad and it makes it appear that the gun could be loaded. We all know without a magazine you can still have one in the chamber but it also puts you behind the curve if you would need to load your weapon because now you need to drop the mag. I just saw it in a video and didn't understand it.

    If it's because your trying to keep the mag well clean or just because you can I still don't think it's a good idea.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHvk0vY6fwk
    I've yet to see a reason not to carry with a mag inserted...

    I don't care if anyone thinks the gun is loaded - infact I'd prefer they think that.
    Dropping an empty mag adds absolutely zero time for getting to a loaded state.
    I suppose there is some benefit for keeping the gun clean...but more importantly an empty mag in the gun guarantees that nothing is going to get in the way of a full mag.

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    So you want to give the appearance of your weapon being loaded. So if you get black holed and cuffed by a police officer you don't have a problem with that?

    I think it would be reasonable for a police to assume it would be loaded with a mag inserted. No rights would be violated and you would be released after being detained and the weapon checked.

    I think it's another thing you can do to cause a confrontation with law enforcement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
    So you want to give the appearance of your weapon being loaded. So if you get black holed and cuffed by a police officer you don't have a problem with that?

    I think it would be reasonable for a police to assume it would be loaded with a mag inserted. No rights would be violated and you would be released after being detained and the weapon checked.

    I think it's another thing you can do to cause a confrontation with law enforcement.
    I think your concept of reasonable is far from that of most on this forum.

    You're basically saying that in order for a gun to be considered unloaded it should be dissassembled.

    Additionally, as you said earlier, a round could be in the chamber as well.

    Extending the logic you posted, any gun which has a chamber that is not open for view should be an invitation for police harassment.

    Should people also take the cylinders off of their revolvers?

    Your concept of rights is also strange. You think no rights are violated by being "black holed and handcuffed" and then searched without any evidence of a crime committed?
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 01-22-2011 at 08:19 PM.

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    Reasonable suspicion is only needed for a detention. That is a low standard. If an officer get a called of an armed suspicious person they could treat it as such.

    Also people would have said they want people to think it's loaded. "You make yourself more of a target for the BGs if they see your magazine well is empty. Having a magazine there keeps them guessing." So would it be much of a stretch that a law enforcement officer could think of it as a person running around with a loaded gun and treat it as such?

    You can also walk down the street with a elephant gun strapped to your back. It isn't considered concealable. It's not illegal. So why not do it?

    Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's smart. Your logic is because it's not illegal it's ok.

    I guess I just look back to my day in the marines. If it has a mag in it it's seen and seen as being loaded until proven otherwise. I think that's not an uncommon view.

    Law enforcement is allowed to check your gun. You view this as harassment. I view this as the law. If you make yourself a target then you could be targeted.

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    "Your concept of rights is also strange. You think no rights are violated by being "black holed and handcuffed" and then searched without any evidence of a crime committed?"

    Reasonable suspicion. You believe a person has a loaded weapon. Would you not treat it as such? As many have said they want you to think it's loaded.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    My reason for having an empty mag in stems from one encounter I had where a child attempted to put their finger in the well recess. I was able to see the child on my side, peripheral vision, and was able to turn and avoid this potential mishap.
    If I hadnt seen or the child approached from behind and was able to get his finger in the well, my concern is I might have reacted instinctively to a manipulation of my firearm from behind and could have injured an otherwise innocent curios act of a child that was not taught by their parents to have respect for firearms.
    Perhaps the child had an affinity towards guns? perhaps he was used to seeing guns with magazines in place. From a childs point of view, which I had not considered was, "there is a hole let me put my finger in it".

    I also agree with many of the other reasons already discussed but this is my reason for keeping an empty Mag in the well.
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    This thread is annoying. Lets go over some stuff here:

    Why do you say it looks bad? The gun doesnt look complete without a magazine, this is like saying that tires make a car look bad.

    What curve does dropping a magazine put you behind while loading? If you know how to load a gun it has no affect on your load time.

    Carrying a gun is a good way to not be a target. If its clear that you are not carrying a loaded gun, you are still a somewhat easy target. If i was gonna rob someone and i had a choice between someone that was clearly unloaded, and someone that may or may not be unloaded, i would go for the guy who isnt loaded. Thats just me though.

    An empty magazine is not RAS, nor is a gun. 12031(e) gives LEO permission to violate your 4th amendment right in order to see if you are in compliance with the law, or to establish RAS if you are not.

    "Reasonable suspicion is only needed for a detention. That is a low standard."
    -not really. the officer needs to have reason to believe that a crime has, is being, or is about to be committed, and a gun (magazine inserted or not) does not meet this criteria. refer to 12031(e).

    "Reasonable suspicion. You believe a person has a loaded weapon. Would you not treat it as such? As many have said they want you to think it's loaded. "
    - Again, having a gun is not reasonable suspicion. having a magazine in a gun is not reasonable suspicion. if you are unreasonably suspicious, thats your problem. but having a magazine in a gun does not give a cop reasonable suspicion.



    and the most amazing part of your posts:

    "I guess I just look back to my day in the marines. If it has a mag in it it's seen and seen as being loaded until proven otherwise. I think that's not an uncommon view.

    Law enforcement is allowed to check your gun. You view this as harassment. I view this as the law. If you make yourself a target then you could be targeted. "

    Marines do not follow the same laws as civilians, we were under the UCMJ. stop confusing your time in the Marines with your time in on camp couch.

    Here in the civilian life we have rights (or should anyway) the 4th amendment right (you should be ashamed that you helped defend the constitution as a Marine and are now OK with it being violated) guarantees us the right to be secure in our person and effects. that is, we can not be searched without a warrant, 12031(e) is a clear violation of the 4th amendment. guns are not illegal, we should not be searched or inspected just for having one.

    What you view as law even though it is clearly unconstitutional is a typical sheeple mentality. Just because its law it doesnt make it right.


    Edit to add:

    See if you can notice what conflicts here:

    4th amendment to the constitution of the United States of America:
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    12031(e):
    In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for
    the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
    to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
    vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
    incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
    Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
    this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
    this section.
    Last edited by dirtykoala; 01-22-2011 at 09:40 PM.
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    Society's view on things is how law started. It's called common law. It's the base of today's law. What society views as being wrong often becomes law. Our constitution is being redefined all of the time. It's called case law.

    As society changes things that were seen as OK often change. Many view this as a reason why gun laws should be changed. I'm not saying I agree with hat but that's how things work.

    I'm no blind sheep. I keep myself educated and keep up with the current affairs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
    Society's view on things is how law started. It's called common law. It's the base of today's law. What society views as being wrong often becomes law. Our constitution is being redefined all of the time. It's called case law.

    As society changes things that were seen as OK often change. Many view this as a reason why gun laws should be changed. I'm not saying I agree with hat but that's how things work.

    I'm no blind sheep. I keep myself educated and keep up with the current affairs.
    Society changes laws based on feelings. i.e. 626.9, its nice to say that guns are not allowed in school zones, but 626.9 did not result in having gun free school zones.

    It felt good to say that black people couldnt march around with loaded guns, so "society" created 12031. this didnt keep criminals (black or not) from carrying loaded guns.

    12031(e) is not case law, nor is it common law (which are the same thing), it is a section of a penal code, and is a statutory law.

    The 4th amendment to the constitution has exceptions for things like plain view, and consent, but surprisingly enough, 12031(e) is not listed as an exception to the constitution.

    You are indeed a blind sheep if you feel that 12031e is acceptable simply because it is a law. As a blind sheep, you are unaware that you are a blind sheep, and you should rely on other people telling you whether you are or not.

    I'm having a hard time getting past the fact that you made sure you dropped the fact that you were a Marine into your post, but you shamelessly turn your back on the oath you took because a racist law is in place.

    "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
    Society's view on things is how law started. It's called common law. It's the base of today's law. What society views as being wrong often becomes law. Our constitution is being redefined all of the time. It's called case law.

    As society changes things that were seen as OK often change. Many view this as a reason why gun laws should be changed. I'm not saying I agree with hat but that's how things work.

    I'm no blind sheep. I keep myself educated and keep up with the current affairs.
    Common law; as you put it, is a result of politicians useing public sorrow to enact laws which limit our freedoms under the guise of public safety. This is a method of control. They know they cannot control a free man. So they create obscure laws in which they fully expect us to not be able to abide. To turn a free man into a criminal. Because a criminal they can control.

    It is situations like this that inspired the drafting of the Bill of Rights in the first place. And that is most certainly not open for redefinition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MountainMike View Post
    Common law; as you put it, is a result of politicians useing public sorrow to enact laws which limit our freedoms under the guise of public safety. This is a method of control. They know they cannot control a free man. So they create obscure laws in which they fully expect us to not be able to abide. To turn a free man into a criminal. Because a criminal they can control.

    It is situations like this that inspired the drafting of the Bill of Rights in the first place. And that is most certainly not open for redefinition.
    The supreme court defines what the our rights are all the time. They determine the spirit of the law/constitution and how it should be applied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
    The supreme court defines what the our rights are all the time. They determine the spirit of the law/constitution and how it should be applied.
    Slightly off topic; and while I do not disagree that this is the case, I submit that if one wants to know the spirit of The Constititon one should read The Declaration of Independence. And by slightly I mean very.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MountainMike View Post
    Slightly off topic; and while I do not disagree that this is the case, I submit that if one wants to know the spirit of The Constititon one should read The Declaration of Independence. And by slightly I mean very.
    Federalist Papers..

    There is ZERO question about what our Constitution holds in meaning. Its all there, in writing what our founding fathers meant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post
    Federalist Papers..

    There is ZERO question about what our Constitution holds in meaning. Its all there, in writing what our founding fathers meant.

    Carry on.
    Yes, often is the case where one can determine the spirit by reading the letter of the law. You are also correct in that the Federalist Papers provide insight to what the founders were thinking. It is not my intention to split hairs but I still maintain that the spirit of the nation was unequivocally stated in the Declaration of Independence.

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    I carry with a mag inserted precisely because I want everyone who is ignorant of California law to assume that my gun is loaded. The ones who know the law can probably guess that it's not. Or maybe they know the law, but assume that I do not, and my gun may actually be loaded? You never can tell...

    But regardless of appearances, a cop is always going to treat the gun as if it were loaded until he personally determines that it is not, so until 12031(e) is rendered null, I fail to see how my relationship with law enforcement is going to change in that regard. I've been to plenty of UOC gatherings, with various people carrying with or without an empty mag well, and our encounters with the LEOs all ended the same way: (e) check.

    Perhaps you'd like to carry with your mag well empty and your slide locked back. Let us know how successful you are in avoiding those contacts and (e) checks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
    So you want to give the appearance of your weapon being loaded. So if you get black holed and cuffed by a police officer you don't have a problem with that?

    I think it would be reasonable for a police to assume it would be loaded with a mag inserted. No rights would be violated and you would be released after being detained and the weapon checked.

    I think it's another thing you can do to cause a confrontation with law enforcement.
    You already pointed out that a handgun which uses a magazine is capable of being loaded regardless of whether or not there is a magazine in it. So ultimately that makes the magazine a completely moot point with regar to whether or not someone thinks its loaded.

    I completely disagree with you that you seem to think the simple presence of a gun, loaded or not, is evidence of a crime.

    I've been OCing in suburban California for 20 years - Knock on wood I've never once been e-checked. Did all those cops over all those years get it wrong?

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    I do not disagree that 12031 is flawed and unconstitutional; however, it is law in california in the view of politicians and officers. So as long as it is not overturned and the executive branch decides they are still going to enforce it, carrying a gun that appears loaded is reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed since as it stands carrying a gun loaded in California is a crime whether we like it or not. Still, I think we all can agree it shouldn't be considered that way.

    This is in no way an attempt to justify 12031(e) or an advocation of gun control, nor do I mean to imply that these searches are in anyway constitutional I am just pointing out a view point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gooelf View Post
    ... carrying a gun that appears loaded is reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed since as it stands carrying a gun loaded in California is a crime whether we like it or not.
    Driving with a dead hooker in your trunk is illegal. Driving a car doesn't mean you're Jack the Ripper.

    Why is it unreasonable to search for dead hookers but its ok to search for a cartridge in a gun?!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gooelf View Post
    I do not disagree that 12031 is flawed and unconstitutional; however, it is law in california in the view of politicians and officers. So as long as it is not overturned and the executive branch decides they are still going to enforce it, carrying a gun that appears loaded is reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed since as it stands carrying a gun loaded in California is a crime whether we like it or not. Still, I think we all can agree it shouldn't be considered that way.

    This is in no way an attempt to justify 12031(e) or an advocation of gun control, nor do I mean to imply that these searches are in anyway constitutional I am just pointing out a view point.
    If it were true that what "appears" to be a loaded gun is RAS that a crime is being committed since, as you state, it is illegal to carry a loaded firearm in California, then every last OCer who carries a loaded firearm would be arrested and dragged off to jail. However, as it stands, it is not illegal to have a loaded firearm in exempt areas of the state of California.

    Law-abiding OCers do not carry loaded firearms for the very reason they would be arrested for illegally carrying in restricted areas. Those law-abiding OCers who do carry loaded firearms, do so legally.
    Last edited by CenTex; 01-23-2011 at 01:21 PM.
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    Who cares. Really, I am going back to my argument that while common law, the intention of the founding fathers is a nice discussion, who cares. Each founding father has his own opinions about everything, they had huge differences in opinions. What they thought, what they wrote, isn't the law.

    The law of the land is simple: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

    That means even if we found tomorrow that Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and the rest o'the gang wrote somewhere secret that they really didn't agree with it, that it doesn't matter. The Law of the Land, the Law of this Country says it simple, period.







    Quote Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post
    Federalist Papers..

    There is ZERO question about what our Constitution holds in meaning. Its all there, in writing what our founding fathers meant.

    Carry on.

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