Breaking News, 1 Dead 4 injured at Port Orchard Wal Mart

Tomas · Jan 27, 2011

amlevin said:
But you have to remember that all the fun is in the "conjecture".

True, true, and those who guessed closest with insufficient information will get to feel good about their guesses and those who guessed wrong will hope that no one noticed. :lol:

Slightly OT: Notice how different the general "feel" over this incident as opposed to John Williams' incident. With this one no one is really taking the officer to task for firing, even though an "innocent" may have been killed, whereas in the other incident it felt wrong immediately... IMHO even if the girl was shot by the responding officer, I would have a difficult time faulting her. She will likely have a much more difficult time living with it, though, second guessing herself.

marshaul · Jan 27, 2011

Tomas said:
Slightly OT: Notice how different the general "feel" over this incident as opposed to John Williams' incident. With this one no one is really taking the officer to task for firing, even though an "innocent" may have been killed, whereas in the other incident it felt wrong immediately... IMHO even if the girl was shot by the responding officer, I would have a difficult time faulting her. She will likely have a much more difficult time living with it, though, second guessing herself.

Sure. None of us are "anti-cop".

What we are is anti-murder, anti-rights-violation, anti-cover-up, anti-denial-of-justice, anti-extortion, anti-statistics-manipulation, etc.

To whatever extent the police are perpetrators of the above is the extent to which we are "anti" them.

Any disagreement caused thereby is not my fault. Any problem with that is not mine. My position is unassailable in its reasonability.

jbone · Jan 27, 2011

amlevin said:
SNIP…I seriously doubt that the deputy knew she was 13 and a runaway

I agree, but I think those in her defense will play the troubled teen gunned down, easily, unless evidence can prove otherwise.

amlevin said:
SNIP…It's collateral damage which isn't necessarily intentional.

I can’t imagine we’ll be hearing that in the court room, no lawyer in their right mind what say that in defense of this tragic death.

Ajetpilot said:
SNIP…Regardless who fired the shot that killed the girl, the "proximate cause" of her death was the actions of the deceased. "But for" him drawing a firearm and firing at the deputies, she would not have died [/QUOTE]

Ajetpilot said:
This sounds like an argument we could reasonably expect to hear in court.

Trigger Dr · Jan 27, 2011

Now that this has been subjected to a lot of conjecture, ask yourself, "what would I have done had I been there?"
Think about it very carefully and recognize the danger one could place themselves in IF they were to attempt to assist LEO without being asked to assist.
This is an important thing to consider.
There are some on this forum who would try to get involved to help and probably be arrested or shot. You know who you are.
Even with my years of experience and the fact that I am fairly well know by the local LEO community I would have taken cover until asked to help.

Tomas · Jan 27, 2011

Absolutely, Trigger Dr!

I would have taken cover, and made certain that I could get to my firearm quickly and easily, but would NOT have drawn it unless the perp came toward me and I had to protect myself.

Showing a firearm in that sort of situation would have been very foolish. Attempting to "help" would have been even worse.

FMCDH · Jan 27, 2011

Unless all the officers fell, and/or I was asked for assistance, no. Even then I would have to evaluate the situation based upon all known variables, and recognize that I have no legal obligation to get involved in such matters.

That said, I do feel I have a moral obligation to assist when possible as long as I am not placing myself or others in undue danger. Having just watched an individual gun down three officers (hypothetical worst case scenario) I would certainly be looking for an near absolute advantage before engaging alone, such as while he is in the middle of reloading, or hes trying to get access to another weapon to continue shooting.

Now, if he targets me or those with me specifically, then that's something else entirely.

Beyond that, there are simply too many variables to comment further without wild speculation.

Chances are, an LEO would never request assistance from bystanders in an active shooting situation anyway, as they simply have no way of knowing who might be armed sufficiently enough, or even capable of being trusted.

Even when I did work in uniformed security, of the 100+ cases I called and asked for police presence or intervention, I was only ever asked to assist in any way, even in none dangerous situations, perhaps twice.

BigDave · Jan 27, 2011

Trigger Dr said:
Now that this has been subjected to a lot of conjecture, ask yourself, "what would I have done had I been there?"
Think about it very carefully and recognize the danger one could place themselves in IF they were to attempt to assist LEO without being asked to assist.
This is an important thing to consider.
There are some on this forum who would try to get involved to help and probably be arrested or shot. You know who you are.
Even with my years of experience and the fact that I am fairly well know by the local LEO community I would have taken cover until asked to help.

Tomas said:
Absolutely, Trigger Dr!

I would have taken cover, and made certain that I could get to my firearm quickly and easily, but would NOT have drawn it unless the perp came toward me and I had to protect myself.

Showing a firearm in that sort of situation would have been very foolish. Attempting to "help" would have been even worse.

FMCDH said:
Unless all the officers fell, and/or I was asked for assistance, no. Even then I would have to evaluate the situation based upon all known variables, and recognize that I have no legal obligation to get involved in such matters.

That said, I do feel I have a moral obligation to assist when possible as long as I am not placing myself or others in undue danger. Having just watched an individual gun down three officers (hypothetical worst case scenario) I would certainly be looking for an near absolute advantage before engaging alone, such as while he is in the middle of reloading, or hes trying to get access to another weapon to continue shooting.

Now, if he targets me or those with me specifically, then that's something else entirely.

Beyond that, there are simply too many variables to comment further without wild speculation.

Chances are, an LEO would never request assistance from bystanders in an active shooting situation anyway, as they simply have no way of knowing who might be armed sufficiently enough, or even capable of being trusted.

Even when I did work in uniformed security, of the 100+ cases I called and asked for police presence or intervention, I was only ever asked to assist in any way, even in none dangerous situations, perhaps twice.

It sure is great and very satisfying to see such great responses and well thought out.
Hmm this is a way to keep me quiet :lol: as I have nothing to add to these great comments, though no doubt depending on future post.

Tomas · Jan 27, 2011

Just a random thought that strolled across my mind while reading that last post: In my 64+ years the ONLY time I have ever considered thrusting myself into the middle of an ongoing firefight was when I was in the military in a war zone, and trust me, it was EXPECTED that I would become 100% involved. When the foliage has muzzle flashes and you can hear things going *thwack* around you, you ARE involved, want to be or not...

Lacking that sort of direct involvement, as a civilian, and not in a war zone, I would not presume to interfere. The proper response is to take cover, get others to cover, and protect myself and those close by as necessary.

Do not become a distraction to those involved by showing a weapon or firing unless you have run out of safe options.

(I can think of one class of exception to that. For example in the case of the Tacoma Mall Shooter [Maldonado], if I were present and could have safely taken the shooter out from cover before the police took over, without endangering anyone else, I would have felt it was my duty to do so. Once law enforcement is on scene, my job is to protect myself and those around me, but to otherwise stay out of the way and not become a distraction.)

FMCDH · Jan 27, 2011

Tomas said:
Just a random thought that strolled across my mind while reading that last post: In my 64+ years the ONLY time I have ever considered thrusting myself into the middle of an ongoing firefight was when I was in the military in a war zone, and trust me, it was EXPECTED that I would become 100% involved. When the foliage has muzzle flashes and you can hear things going *thwack* around you, you ARE involved, want to be or not...

Lacking that sort of direct involvement, as a civilian, and not in a war zone, I would not presume to interfere. The proper response is to take cover, get others to cover, and protect myself and those close by as necessary.

<SNIP>

Tomas

Would you classify what was going on in the OT as anything near equivalent as a war zone?

Tomas · Jan 27, 2011

FMCDH said:
Tomas

Would you classify what was going on in the OT as anything near equivalent as a war zone?

As violent as a situation may be, it is NOT a war zone, and different rules apply.

Unless the battle was brought to me as a direct threat to myself or those immediately around me, I would not "seek out" the "action" and would try to simply become invisible.

FMCDH · Jan 27, 2011

Tomas said:
As violent as a situation may be, it is NOT a war zone, and different rules apply.

Unless the battle was brought to me as a direct threat to myself or those immediately around me, I would not "seek out" the "action" and would try to simply become invisible.

Fair enough.

AFPVet · Jan 28, 2011

No trained person goes into an expected firefight with a pistol. Pistols are purely defensive tools. If you have no choice but to defend yourself or others from a direct, that is one thing... diving into a sit... well, that's another.

EMNofSeattle · Oct 16, 2012

So I will make one comment and revive this thread, I have no official reports that state this but I will request them sometime soon as to this Wal-Mart incident, (has it been two years already?) But I was chatting a few months ago with a friend of mine who's a Kitsap Deputy, and he said something along the lines of the kidnapping male shot the girl before police killed him. For anyone who still cares about this anyway. I'll look at filing PDRs on the reports if anyone is that interested in knowing after 2 years.

Cubex DE · Oct 16, 2012

EMNofSeattle said:
So I will make one comment and revive this thread

I saw the title of the thread and thought "HOLY CRAP" and then halfway down the first page I realized it was actually very much NOT breaking news... :lol:

BigDave · Oct 16, 2012

EMNofSeattle said:
So I will make one comment and revive this thread, I have no official reports that state this but I will request them sometime soon as to this Wal-Mart incident, (has it been two years already?) But I was chatting a few months ago with a friend of mine who's a Kitsap Deputy, and he said something along the lines of the kidnapping male shot the girl before police killed him. For anyone who still cares about this anyway. I'll look at filing PDRs on the reports if anyone is that interested in knowing after 2 years.

Old News but it will help in raising your post count! :lol:

EMNofSeattle · Oct 16, 2012

BigDave said:
Old News but it will help in raising your post count! :lol:

Well I never saw it posted in the thread, I've been going far back in time and reading older posts and stuff.

I don't really care much about my post count, once I crossed 500 I stopped caring about post count! I probably won't know I crossed 1000 until I get 1200. not something i pay much mind to, unless someone with only 90 calls me "FNG" then I care about post ct!

bmg50cal · Oct 16, 2012

FNG doesn't have any self control...

EMNofSeattle · Oct 16, 2012

bmg50cal said:
FNG doesn't have any self control...

104 posts, impressive, you've added 6 since you last called me that

(Now I am jacking up my post count

)

tombrewster421 · Oct 16, 2012

EMNofSeattle said:
Well I never saw it posted in the thread, I've been going far back in time and reading older posts and stuff.

I don't really care much about my post count, once I crossed 500 I stopped caring about post count! I probably won't know I crossed 1000 until I get 1200. not something i pay much mind to, unless someone with only 90 calls me "FNG" then I care about post ct!

Now that I googled FNG I still don't understand why you think post count has anything to do with the term. He joined a year and a half before you. Post count doesn't mean crap. He's had more time to learn from others posts.

EMNofSeattle · Oct 16, 2012

tombrewster421 said:
Now that I googled FNG I still don't understand why you think post count has anything to do with the term. He joined a year and a half before you. Post count doesn't mean crap. He's had more time to learn from others posts.

I really think you misread me, I'm not claiming my post count as a credibility, I was simply making light hearted comment about him referring to me as "FNG" that's all. I really care that much about post counts, really I promise. And no I didn't revive this forum to increase my post count.

Breaking News, 1 Dead 4 injured at Port Orchard Wal Mart

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