Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: Not just LEOs, elected officials and instructors misinformed....... salesmen too!

  1. #1
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    960

    Not just LEOs, elected officials and instructors misinformed....... salesmen too!

    Man, I wonder how much this happens every day.

    Guy, permitted for a long time, but is just now buying a gun. Looking at holstering options and says he knows that it can't show because he has a "concealed carry" permit.

    Mentions that he's originally from a state that can open carry and he is clear that in CT, we can't.

    Later, bumped into him and we started talking rifles, and the conversation quickly jumped into how to carry (holstering questions). And we had the discussion about what is legal and that I'd show him the statutes. He seemed genuinely interested and grateful.

    But, makes me wonder...... just how many people sell dozens of firearms a day and misinform permit holders on a daily basis.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Shelton
    Posts
    138
    yeah it happens to me all the time where I work. I talk to gun owners a lot and every time I mention OC they always tell me "that's Illegal" and I show them the info and eventually get them to understand that it isn't illegal. The biggest thing I have used has been my CT and FL permits where the FL one specifically states "Concealed" and my CT is of course just a Permit to carry.

    There are a lot of people severely misinformed.

  3. #3
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    960
    When I was talking to this guy, I did something similar. He said he had a concealed carry permit. So, I told him to look at it.

    Response: "hmmmm"

    Those that like to have the "You're wrong, open carry is illegal in CT" mindset are fun. I usually tell them, I'll make them a deal. Fine cigar if I'm write, favorite liquor if you're right.

    You should see how many say something like "I knew it was in there somewhere"....

    I must have a couple of boxes of cigars by now......

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    NY-CT
    Posts
    210
    It's because most gun shops have at least one former cop working at them and/or are frequented by cops who provide the wrong information authoritatively.

    Gun shops are notoriously some of the worst places to get legal advice.
    Last edited by emsjeep; 01-24-2011 at 01:08 AM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    960
    No doubt.

    And, I make it clear that I'm not offering legal advice either. Two semesters of law don't make me a lawyer. What I do, is point them to the statutes and let them make up their own mind.

    It also helps to point out prior cases here in the state and how they were handled as well.

    Last thing I want is to look like I'm trying to offer advise or "school" someone. Not exactly the positive image we would want!

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Shelton
    Posts
    138
    Yeah I guess I just never understood the LEO view on this. as a LEO I would WANT to know who is carrying a firearm. When I do a traffic stop I want to KNOW if that person is armed or not. I would feel safer seeing it than if it was concealed.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    NY-CT
    Posts
    210
    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: LEO Bashing

  8. #8
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    in front of my computer, WI
    Posts
    4,426
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Mitola
    As a LEO I would WANT to know who is carrying a firearm. When I do a traffic stop I want to KNOW if that person is armed or not. I would feel safer seeing it than if it was concealed.
    If you were a smart LEO, you'd assume everyone was armed until & unless you searched them.
    And probably the only way you'll see a gun during a traffic stop is if you get them out of their car, or it's in a shoulder holster.

    If you can see the gun, you're probably OK, since even the FBI says criminals don't open carry.
    People who tell you they're carrying generally wouldn't be a problem.
    People who tell you they're not carrying might really not be carrying, or might be intending to harm you. How do you tell which is which?

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    NY-CT
    Posts
    210
    Quote Originally Posted by emsjeep View Post
    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: LEO Bashing
    Aww...did someone's feelings get hurt by the implication that a military ruling class exists in the United States? This is Law School 101 people, everyone knows the real motivations behind the actions even if we're not allowed to talk about it. Corruption is corruption even if I can't call it corruption.
    Last edited by emsjeep; 01-24-2011 at 02:47 PM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    960
    I don't agree with the admin that that was LEO bashing.

    It is indeed a fact herein CT that when you ask most LEO's, they still think open carry is illegal.

    And it also a fact that many retired LEOs do work in our gun shops, so.......

    Where's the bashing?

    I'm just sayin'.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    If you were a smart LEO, you'd assume everyone was armed until & unless you searched them.
    And probably the only way you'll see a gun during a traffic stop is if you get them out of their car, or it's in a shoulder holster.

    If you can see the gun, you're probably OK, since even the FBI says criminals don't open carry.
    People who tell you they're carrying generally wouldn't be a problem.
    People who tell you they're not carrying might really not be carrying, or might be intending to harm you. How do you tell which is which?
    Well said. There is absolutely No Way that an officer could "know" who was carrying at any particular time. Therefore, an intelligent officer hopes for the best and plans for the worst.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    NY-CT
    Posts
    210
    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    I don't agree with the admin that that was LEO bashing.

    It is indeed a fact herein CT that when you ask most LEO's, they still think open carry is illegal.

    And it also a fact that many retired LEOs do work in our gun shops, so.......

    Where's the bashing?

    I'm just sayin'.

    Jonathan
    I made some comment about entitlement, superiority and job security. I guess I see how it could be characterized as overly harsh, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. I've seen enough of it to know...hell, just flip through a few of the more active state forums here and you have all the evidence you need...
    Last edited by emsjeep; 01-24-2011 at 03:19 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Newington, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    82
    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    When I was talking to this guy, I did something similar. He said he had a concealed carry permit. So, I told him to look at it.

    Response: "hmmmm"

    Those that like to have the "You're wrong, open carry is illegal in CT" mindset are fun. I usually tell them, I'll make them a deal. Fine cigar if I'm write, favorite liquor if you're right.

    You should see how many say something like "I knew it was in there somewhere"....

    I must have a couple of boxes of cigars by now......

    Jonathan
    I've bet a older guy who's had his permit for a very long time $100 on the table at that moment cash not even a check if he can provide me with written proof that its illegal as he was CONVINCED that its in the booklet from the DPS. Next time I saw him he changed it to "yeah well you'd get arrested for it!" and even agreed with the BOP as a valid arrest for OC! Ugh I hate stupid people!

  14. #14
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    North Branford, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,910
    Quote Originally Posted by Tazman2 View Post
    I've bet a older guy who's had his permit for a very long time $100 on the table at that moment cash not even a check if he can provide me with written proof that its illegal as he was CONVINCED that its in the booklet from the DPS. Next time I saw him he changed it to "yeah well you'd get arrested for it!" and even agreed with the BOP as a valid arrest for OC! Ugh I hate stupid people!
    It is a lot easier to win the debate when you are OCing already right in front of them.

  15. #15
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    960
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    It is a lot easier to win the debate when you are OCing already right in front of them.
    Not really, because as the post above ya states, the usual response would be "well, you just haven't gotten caught yet".

    Even if I show them what you went through, same deal. People just don't want to be open to changing their mythconceptions.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Shelton
    Posts
    138
    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    Not really, because as the post above ya states, the usual response would be "well, you just haven't gotten caught yet".

    Even if I show them what you went through, same deal. People just don't want to be open to changing their mythconceptions.

    Jonathan
    People are just stubborn and refuse to admit that they are wrong. and will look for any reason to justify their point of view.

  17. #17
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    960
    I'm going through that with a good friend now.

    He said a friend is fighting a huge case, just for his gun printing or showing on his waist - criminal case.

    He says I'm wrong. OK, I can deal with him being wrong. However, he will provide NO information on his friend and the case pending. The few people that know a little bit of what the issues we are fighting with seem to always go "but what happened to that Goldberg fella?".

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    North Branford, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,910
    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    I'm going through that with a good friend now.

    He said a friend is fighting a huge case, just for his gun printing or showing on his waist - criminal case.

    He says I'm wrong. OK, I can deal with him being wrong. However, he will provide NO information on his friend and the case pending. The few people that know a little bit of what the issues we are fighting with seem to always go "but what happened to that Goldberg fella?".
    I have had a lot of people misinterpret Goldberg's case and sometimes insist that there is another one like it that hasn't been settled, etc.

    Heck, I even had Old Saybrook PD call me to tell me that the most recent Goldberg ruling somehow gives them the authority to stop and detain anyone who is open carrying, despite the fact that Goldberg was not open carrying, and the Glastonbury PD (just like the OSPD) didn't even have the laws straight on why they stopped him in the first place.

    I love ignorance, especially when it is mixed with a healthy dose of arrogance.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    NY-CT
    Posts
    210
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    I have had a lot of people misinterpret Goldberg's case and sometimes insist that there is another one like it that hasn't been settled, etc.

    Heck, I even had Old Saybrook PD call me to tell me that the most recent Goldberg ruling somehow gives them the authority to stop and detain anyone who is open carrying, despite the fact that Goldberg was not open carrying, and the Glastonbury PD (just like the OSPD) didn't even have the laws straight on why they stopped him in the first place.

    I love ignorance, especially when it is mixed with a healthy dose of arrogance.
    Your best defense to that would be to simply ask them to pull out the law reporter that contains the Goldberg decision (there isn't one) and ask them to point to the text that affirmatively and unquestionably gives them that right....
    Last edited by emsjeep; 01-27-2011 at 11:34 PM.
    "Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Shelton
    Posts
    138
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    I have had a lot of people misinterpret Goldberg's case and sometimes insist that there is another one like it that hasn't been settled, etc.

    Heck, I even had Old Saybrook PD call me to tell me that the most recent Goldberg ruling somehow gives them the authority to stop and detain anyone who is open carrying, despite the fact that Goldberg was not open carrying, and the Glastonbury PD (just like the OSPD) didn't even have the laws straight on why they stopped him in the first place.

    I love ignorance, especially when it is mixed with a healthy dose of arrogance.
    Did I miss something in the Goldberg case Rich? he was let go wasn't he? I was under the impression that the charges against him were dropped. Or are we talking about the suit he brought against the town? I read that transcript and it doesn't sound to me like the judge said anything about LEO's being able to do that.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    NY-CT
    Posts
    210
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Mitola View Post
    Did I miss something in the Goldberg case Rich? he was let go wasn't he? I was under the impression that the charges against him were dropped. Or are we talking about the suit he brought against the town? I read that transcript and it doesn't sound to me like the judge said anything about LEO's being able to do that.
    The inference is that because the civil suit failed, they acted appropriately...which is incorrect. They were entitled to immunity for their reasonable if inappropriate actions. In any event, the dismissal of the charges and the fact that the civil decision was unreported makes neither determination precedential for either side, though it may indicate what might happen it binds no one to anything.
    Last edited by emsjeep; 01-28-2011 at 01:18 AM.
    "Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Shelton
    Posts
    138
    Quote Originally Posted by emsjeep View Post
    The inference is that because the civil suit failed, they acted appropriately...which is incorrect. They were entitled to immunity for their reasonable if inappropriate actions. In any event, the dismissal of the charges and the fact that the civil decision was unreported makes neither determination precedential for either side, though it may indicate what might happen it binds no one to anything.

    gotcha now I understand better. thnx

  23. #23
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    North Branford, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,910
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Mitola View Post
    Did I miss something in the Goldberg case Rich? he was let go wasn't he? I was under the impression that the charges against him were dropped. Or are we talking about the suit he brought against the town? I read that transcript and it doesn't sound to me like the judge said anything about LEO's being able to do that.
    Yes, his charges were dropped. In the latest go-around with the courts we had Judge Underhill state a bunch of nonsense about how he should have left his gun in his car (the DPS loves that!) and about how Attorney Baird was wrong about rights quite simply because this was a GUN. And as we all know, guns are evil, etc, etc.

    There is not a lot of substance to Underhill's remarks, and I don't think there are many judges who would agree with his ruling, but we will see when the appeal is heard.

    As for OSPD or any other PD thinking that it somehow means that detaining and arresting someone for printing, or to somehow bridge logic even further that they have the right to detain people who are OCing (which Goldberg was not), they really need to go back to the academy and learn a little bit more about Terry stops and RAS.

    What I find delightful about the OSPD situation is that the police on scene repeatedly tell me I am being detained because this is a 'concealed carry state'. So no matter what, their premise for detainment is based on their own ignorance of the basic firearms laws in this state. I am glad the voice recorder was running.
    Last edited by Rich B; 01-28-2011 at 11:38 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Shelton
    Posts
    138
    yeah I managed to get a rather good voice recorder app for the Iphone called Speak Easy. it takes a little bit to load up but I turn it on and leave it on even while the phone is on my belt and it picks up everything. I've been using that now for a few weeks. I also carry the CCDL pamphlet with me and a copy of the memo to the State police from the gun rally... Hopefully I'm prepared for when I get stopped... who knows I might get lucky and not get bothered.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    , , USA
    Posts
    3
    When I took my course in 97 in Enfield, the instructorn (Now a wildlife officer) Also put out that it was "Concealed Carry" and all that crap about keeping it covered yadda yadda yadda>
    I deployed after that and didn't put in for my permit. Several years later, I started looking into the permit thing. More stuff on the 'net, easier to search. I found that it was total bunk. Then all the cases going to court about people OCing and Causing alarm etc. Just put it off.
    Now the wife is actually interested in getting her permit. Now I have to work out a course schedule. Probly take it together.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •